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warehouse wireless
wireless voip phones - not that many people but just a big, huge box. i am thinking about dividing the place up into 4 and one AP per quadrant. The AP? cisco 1230AG. whadya think? -- "Never have so many understood so little about so much." -- James Burke Hi,
You could consider using the MIMO access points which use the AirGo ships like those from sohoWare (www.sohoware.com). i believe they have used one access point to cover 45000 sq ft of warehouse.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7134132437
Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you are not relying on one access point. Show quoteHide quote "outbackwifi" <shivku***@outbackwifi.com> wrote in message news:1108455224.657808.284910@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Hi, > You could consider using the MIMO access points which use the AirGo > ships like those from sohoWare (www.sohoware.com). i believe they have > used one access point to cover 45000 sq ft of warehouse. > Ed Williams wrote:
> Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you You make a lot of claims for your product, some are a bit hard to > are not relying on one access point. swallow. Such as: "I have used the Signal Seeker for quite some time now and I am still amazed of how much more gain it has from other antennas available on the market." You really have all the other manufacturers beat in technology but you don't know the gain of yours? And you advise someone to set up "several" wireless devices inside one building that have gain equal to 14dbi antennas hooked up to 500mw amps? Not that I doubt that the signal would reach, even if half your claims are half true, but still ... Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with in
a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks and shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra expense and hassle. Ed Show quoteHide quote "Rôgêr" <ab***@your.isp.com> wrote in message news:xPedndV6nKFp3Y_fRVn-hQ@pghconnect.com... > Ed Williams wrote: > >> Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then >> you are not relying on one access point. > > You make a lot of claims for your product, some are a bit hard to swallow. > Such as: "I have used the Signal Seeker for quite some time now and I am > still amazed of how much more gain it has from other antennas available on > the market." You really have all the other manufacturers beat in > technology but you don't know the gain of yours? > > And you advise someone to set up "several" wireless devices inside one > building that have gain equal to 14dbi antennas hooked up to 500mw amps? > Not that I doubt that the signal would reach, even if half your claims are > half true, but still ... Ed Williams wrote:
> Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with in I'd be more inclined to spend some money if I knew what I was getting. > a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks and > shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra expense and > hassle. > Ed You don't know the gain of the antenna, you don't mention the make of the radio, you don't mention the output power, the receive sensitivity. In short you claim fantastic things but specify nothing. That's why I'd spend the extra money and go to the hassle of getting something not so "pig in a poke". You evidently sell hardware and are pissed. And I have said the total dbs of
gain. It has 26 to 30 dbs of gain. I know you know that the gain is variable depending on the speed of connection as so with all others. I know in the next two weeks when the new Signal Seeker comes out you are really gone to be pissed. It's going to be on two different national TV shows. It's configurable to be a router, access point, bridge, client. It's going to save a lot of people there hard earned money. Have a Great Day Roger Show quoteHide quote "Rôgêr" <ab***@your.isp.com> wrote in message news:eu6dnd0om9G3JY_fRVn-ug@pghconnect.com... > Ed Williams wrote: > >> Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with >> in a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks >> and shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra >> expense and hassle. >> Ed > > I'd be more inclined to spend some money if I knew what I was getting. You > don't know the gain of the antenna, you don't mention the make of the > radio, you don't mention the output power, the receive sensitivity. In > short you claim fantastic things but specify nothing. That's why I'd spend > the extra money and go to the hassle of getting something not so "pig in a > poke". Ed Williams wrote:
> You evidently sell hardware and are pissed. And I have said the total dbs of You must be Claire Voyant. But no, I'm not in competition with you in > gain. It has 26 to 30 dbs of gain. I know you know that the gain is variable > depending on the speed of connection as so with all others. I know in the > next two weeks when the new Signal Seeker comes out you are really gone to > be pissed. It's going to be on two different national TV shows. It's > configurable to be a router, access point, bridge, client. It's going to > save a lot of people there hard earned money. > Have a Great Day Roger any manner. And if I was pissed, I'd be sending your contact info to the FCC so they could help you figure out if you're in compliance with the laws. But I'm not angry about it, just hate to see someone who may be well-intentioned but dumb as a sack of hammers when it comes to wireless gear, selling their snakeoil to the uninformed. You have a great day too. On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:18 -0500, "Ed Williams" <e*@poseasy.com> Well, reading the product description, I can sorta deduce that it's awrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7134132437 > >Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you >are not relying on one access point. USB radio with better than typical antenna. Now USB radios usually plug directly into computahs. Are you suggesting that he buy a few of these and plug each one into a separate computah? That's kinda expensive. One could plug all the USB radios into a USB hub and into a single computah. I've actually tried multiple USB radios on one machine. It does work, sorta. I won't go into the problems I slammed into but lets just say it wasn't worth the exercise. Of course, you're limited to 16ft per USB cable, so the 60,000 sq ft warehouse (775ft on a side) will require far too many radios located within 16ft of the computah. If your Signal Seeker product were an ethernet connected bridge radio, then it might be convinced to work. However, USB is not a good fit. Also, I find it interesting that you would recommend an ad-hoc network. It can be done in a warehouse, but would be difficult to direct connect to a central server as ALL the radios would need to communicate with a single ad-hoc bridge radio that is connected to the central server. Depending on the warehouse layout, that may not be possible. Of course, one could build a mesh network, which is basically an ad-hoc network with store and forward repeaters. That would solve the direct connect problem, but I don't see anything on your eBay advertisement that suggest your USB radio supports WDS or any form of repeat mode. Mesh networks are also not mentioned. Were it an ethernet radio that supports client mode, ad-hoc, and repeat mode, it might be convinced to work. However, USB is not a good fit. I also find the following rather interesting: Q: exactly how much of a DB gain does this give you? A: We are waiting for the report to come back. But I know it will keep up with a 14 db panel antenna and a 500 mw amplifier. So I am guessing around min 26 to 30 db gain to the computer. I didn't know my computer has gain. Now, antennas have gain which is usually measured in dBi or dBd, not dB. I know a little about antenna design and I seriously doubt your antenna has 26-30dB of gain. A panel antenna with 26dBi antenna gain will be about 5ft across. A dish antenna will be approximately the same size. Looking at the size and geometry of your Signal Seeker, my guess(tm) is that it's a modified USB dongle, with a biquad antenna under the vacuum formed plastic cover. The biquad is good for perhaps 11-12dBi of gain at best. What I find amusing is that you actually may have a good product idea. It's similar to the various USB-ANT type of radios: http://www.terabeam.com/downloads/specsheets/usb-ant.pdf and is somewhat cheaper. If you offered it with detailed engineering specifications, test reports, comparisons with similar products, and a price advantage, it would fit in nicely between insipid USB dongles, and much more expensive USB-ANT type of radios. It's also small enough to be considered portable and attached to a laptop. However, if you insist on selling it with homily, hogwash, and hype, then methinks you'll get nowhere. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com # je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us # je***@cruzio.com AE6KS Jeff
Thanks for the comments. We just started market this antenna. It was designed by a local man. It does very well compared to everything I compared it to. I was very happy. It was far smaller and compact to anything else we have used. Now for the good part we have invested a lot of money and are taking this design a lot farther. We are coming out with a new model that is 5x7 it will be able to set in just about any mode you can think of. It has been check for gain and we are riding on the limits of FCC. I think people are going to be very pleased. Show quoteHide quote "Jeff Liebermann" <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message news:oho5119atq9i630ka40jg3qlc7491p9mkk@4ax.com... > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:18 -0500, "Ed Williams" <e*@poseasy.com> > wrote: > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7134132437 >> >>Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then >>you >>are not relying on one access point. > > Well, reading the product description, I can sorta deduce that it's a > USB radio with better than typical antenna. Now USB radios usually > plug directly into computahs. Are you suggesting that he buy a few of > these and plug each one into a separate computah? That's kinda > expensive. One could plug all the USB radios into a USB hub and into > a single computah. I've actually tried multiple USB radios on one > machine. It does work, sorta. I won't go into the problems I slammed > into but lets just say it wasn't worth the exercise. Of course, > you're limited to 16ft per USB cable, so the 60,000 sq ft warehouse > (775ft on a side) will require far too many radios located within 16ft > of the computah. If your Signal Seeker product were an ethernet > connected bridge radio, then it might be convinced to work. However, > USB is not a good fit. > > Also, I find it interesting that you would recommend an ad-hoc > network. It can be done in a warehouse, but would be difficult to > direct connect to a central server as ALL the radios would need to > communicate with a single ad-hoc bridge radio that is connected to the > central server. Depending on the warehouse layout, that may not be > possible. Of course, one could build a mesh network, which is > basically an ad-hoc network with store and forward repeaters. That > would solve the direct connect problem, but I don't see anything on > your eBay advertisement that suggest your USB radio supports WDS or > any form of repeat mode. Mesh networks are also not mentioned. Were > it an ethernet radio that supports client mode, ad-hoc, and repeat > mode, it might be convinced to work. However, USB is not a good fit. > > I also find the following rather interesting: > Q: exactly how much of a DB gain does this give you? > A: We are waiting for the report to come back. But I know it will > keep up with a 14 db panel antenna and a 500 mw amplifier. So I am > guessing around min 26 to 30 db gain to the computer. > > I didn't know my computer has gain. Now, antennas have gain which is > usually measured in dBi or dBd, not dB. I know a little about antenna > design and I seriously doubt your antenna has 26-30dB of gain. A > panel antenna with 26dBi antenna gain will be about 5ft across. A > dish antenna will be approximately the same size. Looking at the size > and geometry of your Signal Seeker, my guess(tm) is that it's a > modified USB dongle, with a biquad antenna under the vacuum formed > plastic cover. The biquad is good for perhaps 11-12dBi of gain at > best. > > What I find amusing is that you actually may have a good product idea. > It's similar to the various USB-ANT type of radios: > http://www.terabeam.com/downloads/specsheets/usb-ant.pdf > and is somewhat cheaper. If you offered it with detailed engineering > specifications, test reports, comparisons with similar products, and a > price advantage, it would fit in nicely between insipid USB dongles, > and much more expensive USB-ANT type of radios. It's also small > enough to be considered portable and attached to a laptop. However, > if you insist on selling it with homily, hogwash, and hype, then > methinks you'll get nowhere. > > > -- > # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 > # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > # je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us > # je***@cruzio.com AE6KS "Ed Williams" <e*@poseasy.com> wrote: Marketing hype is all good and wonderful, but only to get people>Jeff >Thanks for the comments. We just started market this antenna. It was >designed by a local man. It does very well compared to everything I compared >it to. I was very happy. It was far smaller and compact to anything else we >have used. >Now for the good part we have invested a lot of money and are taking this >design a lot farther. We are coming out with a new model that is 5x7 it will >be able to set in just about any mode you can think of. It has been check >for gain and we are riding on the limits of FCC. I think people are going to >be very pleased. to look at your engineering specs to see if the product will match their needs. Absent specs, the product is worthless. -- Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl***@barrow.com On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:12:41 -0900, fl***@barrow.com (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote: Show quoteHide quote >"Ed Williams" <e*@poseasy.com> wrote: I agree (completely). A large part of the GUM (great unwashed masses)>>Jeff >>Thanks for the comments. We just started market this antenna. It was >>designed by a local man. It does very well compared to everything I compared >>it to. I was very happy. It was far smaller and compact to anything else we >>have used. >>Now for the good part we have invested a lot of money and are taking this >>design a lot farther. We are coming out with a new model that is 5x7 it will >>be able to set in just about any mode you can think of. It has been check >>for gain and we are riding on the limits of FCC. I think people are going to >>be very pleased. >Marketing hype is all good and wonderful, but only to get people >to look at your engineering specs to see if the product will >match their needs. Absent specs, the product is worthless. will buy into the marketing hype rather than learn how the technology works and make intelligent decisions based on simple arithmetic. A good example is the trend toward "bigger numbers are better" as in 5.6Ghz phones are somehow twice as good as 2.4Ghz which are twice as good as 900MHz. Not so. I don't blame the buying public. This stuff has become complicated. Trying to explain to the GUM that 3dB means twice as powerful has been somewhat of a challenge. The industry answer to the problem of number inundation seems to be to completely remove all useful numbers from data sheets and literature. That began when 3com was successfully sued because their X2(tm) modem technology was not twice as fast as the average GUM member would logically presume. Numbers and specs are bad as they interfere with sales. Some industries have gone the other way. The audiophile market is a mess of weird tests, meaningless specifications, irreproducible results, and quantified rubbish. Almost everything has become hype with more numbers that can possibly be used for an intelligent comparison. Hopefully, wireless will not go down this path, where all the numbers are meaningless. (Peak music transient power?) The Signal Seeker product may be the pinnacle of selling a product without confusing the buyer with numbers. There are very few numbers on the eBay web page. The only specifications (gain) are pure speculation and in my never humble opinion, rather overly optimistic. Since it's a radio, there should be an FCCID somewhere. Was it FCC type certified? If not, one can advertise or announce but not offer for sale. Tech products sold this way do sell, which methinks is a sad commentary on the technical abilities of the average GUM member. I guess education is the standard answer, but that's expensive, time consuming, and presumes that an educated buyer will make better buying decisions. This is exactly the opposite of what the advertising industry wants. Intelligent and informed buyers are bad for sales. -- Jeff Liebermann je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Some industries have gone the other way. The audiophile market is a When I was heavily into audiophile equipment I did a test of my new high > mess of weird tests, meaningless specifications, irreproducible > results, and quantified rubbish. Almost everything has become hype > with more numbers that can possibly be used for an intelligent > comparison. Hopefully, wireless will not go down this path, where all > the numbers are meaningless. (Peak music transient power?) end Sony CD player which was more "liquid" in sound than the cheap piece of sh*t Kmart player I was comparing it to. The sound difference was satisfying to me since I'd spent so much. Then I realized that the cheap one was accidently set to mono and I could no longer tell the difference in sound. I decided that if Audiophile magazine couldn't put together a double blind test I didn't even want to hear what the reviewer had to say. I think you finally got it. The spec are one thing but the proof is in the
pudding. Show quoteHide quote "Rôgêr" <ab***@your.isp.com> wrote in message news:F9ydneQ5s5EWnInfRVn-2g@pghconnect.com... > Jeff Liebermann wrote: > >> Some industries have gone the other way. The audiophile market is a >> mess of weird tests, meaningless specifications, irreproducible >> results, and quantified rubbish. Almost everything has become hype >> with more numbers that can possibly be used for an intelligent >> comparison. Hopefully, wireless will not go down this path, where all >> the numbers are meaningless. (Peak music transient power?) > > When I was heavily into audiophile equipment I did a test of my new high > end Sony CD player which was more "liquid" in sound than the cheap piece > of sh*t Kmart player I was comparing it to. The sound difference was > satisfying to me since I'd spent so much. Then I realized that the cheap > one was accidently set to mono and I could no longer tell the difference > in sound. I decided that if Audiophile magazine couldn't put together a > double blind test I didn't even want to hear what the reviewer had to say. Ed Williams wrote:
> I think you finally got it. The spec are one thing but the proof is in the And if you get it, you'll provide something to go on besides "Buy it > pudding. from me and I'm sure one of us will be happy." Remember, I said I wanted a double blind test on stereo equipment, not reassurance from someone that they thought it was good. If you're not familiar with the double blind concept, do a Google. Seriously, I don't wish you ill luck with your product, but you do a disservice to everyone in the field to market products with nothing more to go on than you think it's great. From the responses you're getting on eBay and here, I'd think you should realize that people want hard info, not fluff. We are not quit ready for marketing yet these were some of the first units.
But Roger I'm not trying to be a use car salesman. I was just so impressed by what it was capable of doing. I have every type of antenna imaginable, panels from 8 to 19 db, yagies to 19 db and the only thing that does better and not much is the 19 db with an amp bolted on to it and on a pole outside. This unit you can grab it and take it with you or set it on the desk beside you. Again I'm not blowing smoke its the best all around simple system I have found. We have been so busy getting all the equipment together to manufacture them. I'm not talking 20 but being capable of thousands a week. I'm not trying to charge a high price for it as you can tell and rip people off. It's just a simple solution for and individual or commercial use. I hope your not mad at me I'll give you more info on it when I can. Ed Show quoteHide quote "Rôgêr" <ab***@your.isp.com> wrote in message news:paOdnZys_MtagInfRVn-hQ@pghconnect.com... > Ed Williams wrote: >> I think you finally got it. The spec are one thing but the proof is in >> the pudding. > > And if you get it, you'll provide something to go on besides "Buy it from > me and I'm sure one of us will be happy." Remember, I said I wanted a > double blind test on stereo equipment, not reassurance from someone that > they thought it was good. If you're not familiar with the double blind > concept, do a Google. Seriously, I don't wish you ill luck with your > product, but you do a disservice to everyone in the field to market > products with nothing more to go on than you think it's great. From the > responses you're getting on eBay and here, I'd think you should realize > that people want hard info, not fluff. On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:58:06 -0600, Gregory W Zill <greg***@r3g.net>
wrote: >anybody ever done a 60,000 sq ft warehouse with wireless pc's and Yep. Just one. Add a bunch of wireless bar code readers. We didn't>wireless voip phones - not that many people but just a big, huge box. have wireless VoIP at the time. >i am thinking about dividing the place up into 4 and one AP per I used 5 Cisco 340 access points at each side of the warehouse near>quadrant. The AP? cisco 1230AG. whadya think? the roof (40ft off the ground) and one in the middle of the roof pointed down. 8dBi patch antennas for about 60 degree beamwidth. Opposite sides didn't hear each other so I was able to re-use frequencies. CAT5 between AP's to a cheapo ethernet switch. Big problems were: 1. Reflections: Steel buildings have LOTS of reflections. Multipath was a killer and the error rate was high at some locations. The 340's are 802.11b which is not a resistant to multipath as 802.11g. 1200 series would be a good choice. Someone suggested MIMO (pre-802.11n) which is probably even better. The reason for the panel antennas was not to get more gain, coverage, or penetration. It was to reduce reflections from the walls, domed roof, and concrete floor. 2. Penetration: The warehouse was for produce storage. Everything was full of water which blocks 2.4GHz. In the isles, most of the traffic was to the overhead roof mounted radio. I chose to install the radios on the sides rather than the more obvious corner locations because I wanted to shoot down the isles. These were not dead center but offset so that opposite radios would not see each other and there would be no overlapping coverage down a given isle. 3. The radios could never seem to be high enough. Some forklift jockey would always put a box of produce directly in front of the panel antenna. 4. It was really cold. Also laser tag with wireless bar code readers is lots of fun. -- Jeff Liebermann je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558 In article <ujfQd.96676$mt.12811@fed1read03>, greg***@r3g.net says...
> anybody ever done a 60,000 sq ft warehouse with wireless pc's and We're in the process of setting up a warehouse in that size range. The > wireless voip phones - not that many people but just a big, huge box. > > i am thinking about dividing the place up into 4 and one AP per > quadrant. The AP? cisco 1230AG. whadya think? problem is that warehouses are hard to get right. Lots of steel racks probably filled with stuff like cardboard that soaks up 2.4Ghz. After some research, the best approach looks to be highly directional antennas (yagis) aimed down the aisles. We'll be using Cisco 1200s with the antenna diversity turned off and two 13.5db Yagis on each of 3 APs. -- Joe Matuscak Rohrer Corporation 717 Seville Road Wadsworth, OH 44281 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:38:01 -0500, Joe Matuscak <matus***@rohrer.com>
wrote: >We're in the process of setting up a warehouse in that size range. The Steel rack frames with big air gaps are only a problem with>problem is that warehouses are hard to get right. Lots of steel racks reflections, not blockage. However, if the shelves are made of solid metal, you've got a barrier. >probably filled with stuff like cardboard that soaks up 2.4Ghz. 2.4GHz goes right though cardboard. Put some cardboard in your homemicrowave oven and see for yourself. Now, wet or aluminized cardboard is a problem but not dry. >After I suggest panels (patch) antennas instead. Same gain, fewer side>some research, the best approach looks to be highly directional antennas >(yagis) aimed down the aisles. lobes, easier to mount, and much lower cost per dB of gain due to less complex construction. >We'll be using Cisco 1200s with the You may wanna leave diversity on and leave one of the cheezy omni>antenna diversity turned off and two 13.5db Yagis on each of 3 APs. antennas plugged in. That's because the higher gain yagi or panel antennas will have wonderful coverage furthur down the isles, but none just below the access point and antenna. A low gain omni will take care of the problem of the pattern going over everyones head. Use Netstumbler or Kismet to do a site survey of the building. If there's a problem directly below the access point and yagi/panel antenna, then put one of the omni's back. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com # je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us # je***@cruzio.com AE6KS 
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