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802.11b/g problems for apartment dwellers
1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an apartment building? 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? Here is the scenario I am in: I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't warwalking. All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have my own free channel. I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel 11. 2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when I was not using my phone nor my microwave. When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are 90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the same time. Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are incrementing fast and furious. I've tried following harware. AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, Linksys PCMCIA Thanks ... On 22 Mar 2005 04:03:02 -0800, "w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> That sounds exactly like a leaky microwave oven, especially if itwrote: >2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when >I was not using my phone nor my microwave. >When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are >90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 >minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the >same time. coincides with the usual meal times. If it's not your microwave oven, it's someone else's. It's not easy to find such a source of interference. Basically, you need a 2.4Ghz spectrum analyzer, directional antenna, and lots of luck as you only have 2-3 minutes to find it before it goes off the air. If you're on good terms with the neighbors, get a cheap microwave oven leakage tester and offer to test the "safety" of their oven for free. Be prepared to clean some really gross and disgusting looking door seals. Since all clients appear to lose connectivity at the same time, it's my guess(tm) that the access point is the one that's picking up the interference. Try moving it to a more protected location, away from probable sources of microwave oven leakage (i.e. windows). -- Jeff Liebermann je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558 Jeff,
I think you're right on the money. I moved AP near a window, far from other apartments and my kitchen, I did not lost connectivity for last 2 days. Not only that, if I remembered correctly, all connectivity problem happened between between 7pm-10pm (time my neighbors heat up their food ???). I'll try to investigate more let y'll know if I find something new. As a side note, I added (http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template/) to my AP. Thanks to everyone in this discussion for their insights. - Joe
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On 22 Mar 2005 04:03:02 -0800, "w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote: You can use 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, or 14.>I have 2 questions. > >1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an >apartment building? >2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and >disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? > >Here is the scenario I am in: > >I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using >netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't >warwalking. >All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have my >own free channel. Show quoteHide quote >I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel 11. Barry>2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when >I was not using my phone nor my microwave. >When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are >90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 >minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the >same time. >Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are >incrementing fast and furious. > >I've tried following harware. >AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC >NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, Linksys >PCMCIA > >Thanks ... On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:22:08 +1100, Barry OGrady <n**@this.add> wrote:
>You can use 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, or 14. Not really. The channels are 5Mhz wide. The typical 802.11b/g signalis about 23Mhz wide thus covering 5 channels. The only non-overlapping channels in the US are 1, 6, and 11. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com # je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us # je***@cruzio.com AE6KS Have you thought of going 802.11a? You can get a 802.11a access point for
your apartment and get a 802.11a/b/g client so you can be compliant with other networks and hotspots you want to connect to. Below are some links to combo clients. http://www.smarter.com/product.php?prodid=1917383&source=inktomi_1917383 http://www.buy.com/retail/Product.asp?sku=10344604&SearchEngine=Inktomi&Type=PI&Keyword=10344604&Category=Comp&dcaid=17282 http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?dest=9999999997&product_id=2304413&sourceid=1500000000000001827170 http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0097049&cs=19&c=us&l=en Robert... Show quoteHide quote "w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1111492982.673055.148560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >I have 2 questions. > > 1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an > apartment building? > 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and > disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? > > Here is the scenario I am in: > > I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using > netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't > warwalking. > All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have my > own free channel. I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel > 11. > 2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when > I was not using my phone nor my microwave. > When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are > 90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 > minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the > same time. > Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are > incrementing fast and furious. > > I've tried following harware. > AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC > NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, Linksys > PCMCIA > > Thanks ... > 'a' has such a poor range that it's not worth it. It's about 1/3 of what you
can expect with b or g (at best). Show quoteHide quote On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:57:31 GMT, "DLink Guru" <rjacobs0spamfree@pacbell.net> wrote: >Have you thought of going 802.11a? You can get a 802.11a access point for >your apartment and get a 802.11a/b/g client so you can be compliant with >other networks and hotspots you want to connect to. Below are some links to >combo clients. > >Robert... > >"w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:1111492982.673055.148560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>I have 2 questions. >> >> 1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an >> apartment building? >> 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and >> disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? >> >> Here is the scenario I am in: >> >> I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using >> netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't >> warwalking. >> All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have my >> own free channel. I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel >> 11. >> 2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when >> I was not using my phone nor my microwave. >> When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are >> 90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 >> minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the >> same time. >> Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are >> incrementing fast and furious. >> >> I've tried following harware. >> AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC >> NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, Linksys >> PCMCIA >> >> Thanks ... >> > You missed the "apartment dwellers" bit of the original post.
802.11a gives you more bits per second per cubic foot which is the salient metric here. --- ~ 'a' has such a poor range that it's not worth it. It's about 1/3 of what you ~ can expect with b or g (at best). ~ ~ ~ On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:57:31 GMT, "DLink Guru" <rjacobs0spamfree@pacbell.net> ~ >Have you thought of going 802.11a? You can get a 802.11a access point for ~ wrote: ~ ~ >your apartment and get a 802.11a/b/g client so you can be compliant with ~ >other networks and hotspots you want to connect to. Below are some links to ~ >combo clients. ~ > ~ >Robert... ~ > ~ >"w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote in message ~ >>I have 2 questions.~ >news:1111492982.673055.148560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... ~ >> ~ >> 1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an ~ >> apartment building? ~ >> 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and ~ >> disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? ~ >> ~ >> Here is the scenario I am in: ~ >> ~ >> I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using ~ >> netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't ~ >> warwalking. ~ >> All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have my ~ >> own free channel. I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel ~ >> 11. ~ >> 2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even when ~ >> I was not using my phone nor my microwave. ~ >> When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are ~ >> 90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 ~ >> minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at the ~ >> same time. ~ >> Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are ~ >> incrementing fast and furious. ~ >> ~ >> I've tried following harware. ~ >> AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC ~ >> NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, Linksys ~ >> PCMCIA ~ >> ~ >> Thanks ... ~ >> ~ > Correct, and unless he is in a 1500 square feet apartment or larger, "A"
would work just fine. Robert... Show quoteHide quote "Aaron Leonard" <Aa***@Cisco.COM> wrote in message news:s7f341pilj1jall9921nfm5sd2rl3619le@4ax.com... > You missed the "apartment dwellers" bit of the original post. > > 802.11a gives you more bits per second per cubic foot which is > the salient metric here. > > --- > > > ~ 'a' has such a poor range that it's not worth it. It's about 1/3 of > what you > ~ can expect with b or g (at best). > ~ > ~ > ~ On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:57:31 GMT, "DLink Guru" > <rjacobs0spamfree@pacbell.net> > ~ wrote: > ~ > ~ >Have you thought of going 802.11a? You can get a 802.11a access point > for > ~ >your apartment and get a 802.11a/b/g client so you can be compliant > with > ~ >other networks and hotspots you want to connect to. Below are some > links to > ~ >combo clients. > ~ > > ~ >Robert... > ~ > > ~ >"w1llr0ut34f00d" <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote in message > ~ >news:1111492982.673055.148560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > ~ >>I have 2 questions. > ~ >> > ~ >> 1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an > ~ >> apartment building? > ~ >> 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and > ~ >> disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? > ~ >> > ~ >> Here is the scenario I am in: > ~ >> > ~ >> I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using > ~ >> netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't > ~ >> warwalking. > ~ >> All those SSIDs already covered channel 1, 6 and 11 so I cannot have > my > ~ >> own free channel. I have a 2.4G cordless phone that is set to channel > ~ >> 11. > ~ >> 2 or 3 times a day, my wireless NICs lost visibility of my AP even > when > ~ >> I was not using my phone nor my microwave. > ~ >> When connectivity is good, both signal strength and link quality are > ~ >> 90%+. When NICs lost connectivity, it cannot be restored for 2 or 3 > ~ >> minutes. Lost of connectivity is experienced by all the machines at > the > ~ >> same time. > ~ >> Even when connectivity is good, PLCP errors and MAC error are > ~ >> incrementing fast and furious. > ~ >> > ~ >> I've tried following harware. > ~ >> AP : Cisco 350, Netgear, Belkin, Linksys, SMC > ~ >> NICs : Cisco 350 PCMCIA, Netgear PCMCIA/USB, Belkin PCMCIA/USB, > Linksys > ~ >> PCMCIA > ~ >> > ~ >> Thanks ... > ~ >> > ~ > > w1llr0ut34f00d <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have 2 questions. Are those *all* the SSIDs or just the ones that were broadcasting?> > 1. How can I configure access point and wireless NIC card in an > apartment building? > 2. If I enable WPA, disable SSID broadcast, filter MAC address and > disable DHCP, is it secure enough for a home? > > Here is the scenario I am in: > > I live in an apartment building and the last time I checked, using > netstumbler, there were 7 SSIDs in my neighborhood and I was't > warwalking. Perhaps other people in your building have bought into the myth that disabling SSID broadcast is a security measure. In your second question, you list one real security measure (WPA) and three placebos. To complicate things further, a lot of people keep their wireless equipment turned off most of the time, making it even harder to figure out which channels are being used. You might need to keep Netstumbler running for many hours to see what the neighborhood usage pattern is. Neill,
I left stumbler running for 2 days and as you said I found two more SSIDs. Regarding three placebos, let me make sure that I understand correctly. 1. MAC address filtering is breakable using spoofed MAC addr 2. Disabling DHCP won't help if a raw frame sniffer can see encapsulated IP. 3. SSID brocast is not good for the same reason mentioned above. (using a raw frame sniffer) I'm a bit confused about the way AP functions regarding SSID. If I disable SSID broadcast, AP won't be advertising beacons. Other than a raw frame sniffer, is there any way to make AP respond SSID while broadcast is disabled. Thanks .. w1llr0ut34f00d <kyaw3***@gmail.com> wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > I left stumbler running for 2 days and as you said I found two more Somebody who is sniffing your network is not joining it or sending> SSIDs. > Regarding three placebos, let me make sure that I understand correctly. > > 1. MAC address filtering is breakable using spoofed MAC addr > 2. Disabling DHCP won't help if a raw frame sniffer can see > encapsulated IP. > 3. SSID brocast is not good for the same reason mentioned above. (using > a raw frame sniffer) > > I'm a bit confused about the way AP functions regarding SSID. If I > disable SSID broadcast, AP won't be advertising beacons. > Other than a raw frame sniffer, is there any way to make AP respond > SSID while broadcast is disabled. anything across it but just eavesdropping on it, so DHCP restrictions and MAC filtering are irrelevant. They'll be able to see MAC addresses, IP addresses, and the SSID. Somebody who isn't sniffing won't see your network if SSID broadcasting is disabled, but that invisibility comes with a price. In a crowded wireless environment like yours, you want other users to know you are there so that they can at least try to minimize interference with your channel. 
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