> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:25 +0000 (UTC),
> d***@XReXXWirel.usenet.us.com wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>>100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
>>>rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
>>>antenna on the client radio.  I would consider buying one of the
>>>allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
>>>point. 
>
>
>>I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas.  Maybe 100
>>feet.
>
>
> I've done about 300ft with the stock rubber duckie antennas on a WAP11
> and my Orinioco Silver card under ideal conditions.  It was a stretch
> and I had to carefully select my position.  There are quite a few web
> sites that claim 300ft as the maximum range of wi-fi (without adding
> antennas) but usually note that 150ft is the practical limit.
>
>
>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>
>
> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
> adding an EXTERNAL antenna.  I presumed that an internal antenna would
> be acceptable.  I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as
> it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house.  Basically,
> there wasn't enough information to properly answer the question, so I
> took my best shot at guesswork.
>
>
>>I
>>would start with a reflector.  It might give a clue as to whether there is a
>>chance of success.  It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.
>>http://www.freeantennas.com/projects EZ-10 and "template 2" being the
>>easiest. 
>
>
> Good idea.  Cheap, easy, and it will tell if it's possible.
>
>
>>>point.  If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
>>>a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G.  This will
>>>hopefully let you put the radio in the window.
>
>
>>I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only the
>>client side. 
>
>
> Sorry, typo error.  I assumed no external antennas were allowed at the
> client end either. 
>
>
>>A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one
>>person seems to know anything about...  I almost hate to post this, but it
>>might lead to some interesting conversations.  Hmmm.  We were warned...
>>Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has gone
>
>>from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping."  I won't bother posting the link.
>
> He probably just got the bill for "testing" the gain.
>
>
>>How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a
>>panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client, which is
>>what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna.  This one is
>>directional.
>>http://www.hawkingtech.com/prodSpec.php?ProdID=208
>
>
> Sure.  Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
> Methinks not.  I would prefer a dedicated link.  Two WAP54G setup as a
> transparent bridge with as big an external antenna as they can afford
> (mostly to keep the beam narrow and therefore reduce interference
> problems).  CAT5 to the existing access points.  Leave the inside
> access points on the opposite sides of the house alone for inside
> coverage.  Two WAP54G's, two 12dBi antennas, pigtails, about $250
> total.  Ouch.
>
> Actually, that's boring and pedestrian.  For point to point at 100
> meters, methinks FSO (free space optics) is the way to go.  No
> interference, very secure, fairly reliable, and no FCC in sight.  The
> problem is that the demand isn't there so the prices are still rather
> high.  Fog is also a problem.  With LED's instead of lasers, eye
> safety is not an issue.
>   http://www.plaintree.com/products.htm
> Just don't ask the price.
>
>
>>>However, the key to success is having line of sight.  You must be able
>>>to see (clearly) between the two antennas.  That means installing both
>>>ends in a window.  Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on
>
>
>>Or outside, by going up and over the house.
>>I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from
>>http://www.fab-corp.com/index.htm
>
>
> Nope.  He said no external antennas and he want to shoot through both
> houses.  I try to answer the question that is asked.  Sometimes, I
> actually succeed.
>
>

> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:25 +0000 (UTC),
>> d***@XReXXWirel.usenet.us.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Jeff Liebermann <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
>>>> rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
>>>> antenna on the client radio.  I would consider buying one of the
>>>> allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
>>>> point. 
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas. 
>>> Maybe 100
>>> feet.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've done about 300ft with the stock rubber duckie antennas on a WAP11
>> and my Orinioco Silver card under ideal conditions.  It was a stretch
>> and I had to carefully select my position.  There are quite a few web
>> sites that claim 300ft as the maximum range of wi-fi (without adding
>> antennas) but usually note that 150ft is the practical limit.
>>
>>
>>> Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>>
>>
>>
>> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
>> adding an EXTERNAL antenna.  I presumed that an internal antenna would
>> be acceptable.  I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as
>> it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house.  Basically,
>> there wasn't enough information to properly answer the question, so I
>> took my best shot at guesswork.
>>
>>
>>> I
>>> would start with a reflector.  It might give a clue as to whether
>>> there is a
>>> chance of success.  It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.
>>> http://www.freeantennas.com/projects EZ-10 and "template 2" being the
>>> easiest. 
>>
>>
>>
>> Good idea.  Cheap, easy, and it will tell if it's possible.
>>
>>
>>>> point.  If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
>>>> a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G.  This will
>>>> hopefully let you put the radio in the window.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only
>>> the
>>> client side. 
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, typo error.  I assumed no external antennas were allowed at the
>> client end either.
>>
>>> A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one
>>> person seems to know anything about...  I almost hate to post this,
>>> but it
>>> might lead to some interesting conversations.  Hmmm.  We were warned...
>>> Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has
>>> gone
>>
>>
>>> from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping."  I won't bother posting the
>>> link.
>>
>>
>> He probably just got the bill for "testing" the gain.
>>
>>
>>> How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a
>>> panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client,
>>> which is
>>> what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna.  This one is
>>> directional.
>>> http://www.hawkingtech.com/prodSpec.php?ProdID=208
>>
>>
>>
>> Sure.  Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
>> Methinks not.  I would prefer a dedicated link.  Two WAP54G setup as a
>> transparent bridge with as big an external antenna as they can afford
>> (mostly to keep the beam narrow and therefore reduce interference
>> problems).  CAT5 to the existing access points.  Leave the inside
>> access points on the opposite sides of the house alone for inside
>> coverage.  Two WAP54G's, two 12dBi antennas, pigtails, about $250
>> total.  Ouch.
>>
>> Actually, that's boring and pedestrian.  For point to point at 100
>> meters, methinks FSO (free space optics) is the way to go.  No
>> interference, very secure, fairly reliable, and no FCC in sight.  The
>> problem is that the demand isn't there so the prices are still rather
>> high.  Fog is also a problem.  With LED's instead of lasers, eye
>> safety is not an issue.
>>   http://www.plaintree.com/products.htm
>> Just don't ask the price.
>>
>>
>>>> However, the key to success is having line of sight.  You must be able
>>>> to see (clearly) between the two antennas.  That means installing both
>>>> ends in a window.  Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on
>>
>>
>>
>>> Or outside, by going up and over the house.
>>> I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from
>>> http://www.fab-corp.com/index.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Nope.  He said no external antennas and he want to shoot through both
>> houses.  I try to answer the question that is asked.  Sometimes, I
>> actually succeed.
>>
>>
> I have been observing this thread, hoping there would be added
> discussion, as I have a system configured already and wanted to stretch
> it. I am running all Linksys, WMP54G PCI Adapter,with a rubber duck,
> WRT54G Router with the high gain 7dBi antenna set.
> Distance between PC and router is 111', signal strength, consistently
> very good. Signal strength with stock antenna on router is consistently
> low (two bars), but remains connected with out any apparent problem. The
> router is connected to a Motorola cable modem.
> What I intend on doing is to install DirectWay dish and satellite
> service at a point 227' in the opposite direction, line of sight to my
> barn along with another WRT54G wireless router and install the high gain
> antennas on it.I have one of the flip up directional antennas, but was
> extremely dissatisfied with it because there is
> only 36" of cable on it. Can barely reach the table above the tower,
> let alone putting it in the window. One other tidbit, my PC desktop
> is located in my camper, the camper can also fit in the barn.
>

"Jeff Liebermann" <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
news:tuon31dfa90idiv6k8qgk8euc33rj5qb8i@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:09:51 +0000 (UTC),
> d***@XReXXWirel.usenet.us.com wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>>
>>> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
>>> adding an EXTERNAL antenna.  I presumed that an internal antenna would
>>
>>Why does internal/external make the distinction between omni and
>>directional?  A patch is fairly innocuous.
>
> I'm guessing that he has the access point on the other side of the
> house for covering the inside of his house.  If he changes that to a
> directional antenna, it might screw up the coverage inside the house.
> Again, this is guesswork on my part and may not be true.
>
>>It would improve things.  If the WAPs are at "the wrong ends of the house"
>>a reflector would help the WAP coverage in that house.
>
> I beg to differ.  He said on the other side of the house.  If the
> pattern is changed to go through the house, the coverage say 90
> degrees and behind the access point will be decreased.  Antennas don't
> create RF signals.  They borrow RF from what normally radiates to the
> sides, back, up, down, and other undesired directions, and sends it in
> the desired direction.
>
>>> Sure.  Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
>>
>>I think it does.  One guy has a WAP.  The other wants to poach his link.
>>A panel on the wall near the WAP, maybe cleverly relocated a little toward
>>the target client, so the backside is still usable.
>
> Ok.  I yield.  Let the original poster describe the topology and
> enough of my guesswork.
>
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831.336.2558 voice  http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> #                         je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
> #                           je***@cruzio.com     AE6KS

>
> Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each
> house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an
> 8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law
> and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost. I need to know if there
> is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely
> because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2
> wireless cards in the PC's?). I found it a little hard to find out
> information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is
> probably the best place to ask.
>
> The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in
> the earlier post) with line of site between them.
>
> Andy.
>
>

>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:40:10 -0000, "Andy"
><and***@nospaammwatson2108.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each
>>house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an
>>8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law
>>and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost.
>
>8Mbit/sec ADSL sharing is going to require outside antennas.  If your
>brother in law wants the full 8Mbits/sec delivered to his house,
>you'll need a wireless connection that's running at about
>20-24Mbits/sec speed.  That's doable as the maximum with 802.11g is
>54Mbits/sec but is gonna be tough.  You didn't mention anything about
>using the wireless for local connections so I'll assume a dedicated
>link.  Let's play with the numbers.  I'll assume a pair of WAP54G
>bridge radios, a 3ft coax cable pigtail, 80meters, and a symmetrical

>system.  The goal is to get at least 20dB fade margin.
>
>To get 8Mbits/sec thruput, with some headroom, you'll need about a
>24Mbits/sec association.  That gives a sensitivity of -79dBm.  The
>following is from a DI-624 but the WAP54G should be fairly close:
>    * 54Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm)
>    * 48Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm)
>    * 36Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -75dBm)
>    * 24Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -79dBm)
>    * 18Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -82dBm)
>    * 12Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -84dBm)
>    * 11Mbps CCK,   8% PER, -82dBm)
>    * 9Mbps OFDM,  10% PER, -87dBm)
>    * 6Mbps OFDM,  10% PER, -88dBm)
>    * 5.5Mbps CCK,  8% PER, -85dBm)
>    * 2Mbps QPSK,   8% PER, -86dBm)
>    * 1Mbps BPSK,   8% PER, -89dBm)
>
>Pluging the quesswork into:
>  http://www.terabeam.com/support/calculations/som.php
>  TX power     = +15dBm
>  TX coax loss = 4dB (3ft LMR-240 plus a mess of connectors)
>  TX ant gain  = unknown
>  Distance     = 0.05 miles (80 meters)
>  RX ant gain  = unknown
>  RX coax loss = 4dB (same at other end)
>  RX sens      = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM)
>  Fade Margin  = >20dB
>A bit of plugging shows that 7dBi gain antenna will work.  That puts
>the system in the coffee can antenna, biquad, and small panel antenna
>class.  This should be a no brainer.
>
>Just for fun, I plugged in what I would guess would be two WAP54 or
>WRT54G (with alternative firmware) boxes using the stock antennas
>without reflectors.
>  TX power     = +15dBm
>  TX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors)
>  TX ant gain  = 1dBi
>  Distance     = 0.05 miles (80 meters)
>  RX ant gain  = 1dBi
>  RX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors)
>  RX sens      = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM)
>  Fade Margin  = unknown
>which yields a fade margin of 16dB.  This will work, at 24Mbits/sec
>but just barely.  However, it's close enough to the target 20dB fade
>margin that a pair of added reflectors such as:
>  http://www.freeantennas.com
>will certainly bring the fade margin above 20dB.
>
>Conclusion is that it will not work with the stock antennas, but will
>work just fine with either added reflectors or fairly minimal external
>antennas.
>
>>I need to know if there
>>is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely
>>because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2
>>wireless cards in the PC's?).
>
>Mistake.  Please don't get an all in one conglomeration.  The problem
>is that the modem, router and switch parts of the puzzle want to live
>where all the wires come together.  That's usually on the floor, in a
>closet, in the basement, or other RF hostile location.  Meanwhile, the
>wireless part of the puzzle wants to live as high as possible, and in
>clear sight of the wireless users.  These requirements are mutually
>incompatible.  Methinks it's best to get 3 seperate boxes for each of
>the functions.  The ADSL modem can live near the phone line MPOE.  The
>router/switch can live near where all the wires come together.  The
>wireless can live in the window with line of sight to the brother in
>law.  Also, if you change service, or a new wireless technology
>appears, you won't have to throw away the entire conglomerated box.
>Seperate boxes are a bit more expensive, but are far more versatile.
>
>Also, what exactly to you mean by "external" antennas?  External to
>the building or external to the wireless box?  If you have line of
>sight through two windows, and there's nothing in the window to cause
>RF blockage such as an aluminized coating, then an 8dBi antenna of
>some sort can be used inside the house and through the window.  No
>need to drill a hole in the wall and mount the antenna outside.
>
>>I found it a little hard to find out
>>information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is
>>probably the best place to ask.
>>
>>The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in
>>the earlier post) with line of site between them.
>
>If the houses are that close, is it possible to run a cable between
>them?  That will solve many of the wireless issues, insure security,
>and probably be cheaper.  If connected between switched ports,
>ethernet can go officially to 100 meters of cable, and far more
>unofficially.  I like to use RG-6/u CATV coax for my outside runs
>(because I have LOTS of it) with 10base2 coax to 10baseT adapters at
>each end.  The 50/75ohm mismatch is not a problem at 100 meters of
>cable.  I've gone about 300 meters of cable with this method.  There
>are other tricks available using telephone cabling, fiber, FSO (free
>space optics), and fence wire.
>
>
>--
>Jeff Liebermann    je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
>150 Felker St #D   http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>Santa Cruz CA 95060    AE6KS  831-336-2558