I have the pre-n router, the card for my laptop, and a card for a desktop.

First, the speed and reach are great. Both are excellent. The speed
seems the same as my old wired network.

Having two machines using the router doesn't seem to degrade performance
noticeably.

The router software has been easy to use. Overall packaging and
documentation is good. I needs a status screen in AP mode. It doesn't
say what's going on in AP mode.

This is my first real experience with consumer grade gear of this type.
I find the reliance on using the web browser for the initial
configuation a big hurdle. It should have a USB port, serial line, or
LCD, or something so i don't have to mess with IP addresses on my
machine to talk with it.

I use it in AP mode because i have router. I found it a bit confusing
about how this should be done. It would be nice to have dipswitch or
something to select a mode.

For some reason after talking with the box for a while i could no longer
talk to it to get a dhcp address. The request kept timing out. Resetting
seemed not to work but i wouldn't know because there is no way to tell
if it is reset. I exchanged it at comp usa for another one with no
problem. This one worked. I suspect the other one just got wedged
somehow. A better class of machine would allow me to see what is going
on inside.

The first person in tech support was great. The other two didn't know
anything and were just following a script.

I don't like how far the pre-n card sticks out of the laptop. That may
be nornal, i just don't know.

I use AES and this just worked on the XP side and on the router. That
was nice. I changed the SSID and turned of broadcast, so i feel like
i've done what can be done.

The biggest problem i have is with the laptop card. To kill my network
access all i have to do is copy a deep directory tree from one machine
to another. The kind of thing you do when you are moving to a new
machine :-) If i just pop the card out and back in everything is ok. I
hope updates in the future will solve this problem. It's not deal killer
for me, but i don't like it.

I have rebooted the router once when the network connection was down. I
am not sure of the problem.

As after a lot of research it seems every product had a lot of bad
comments about them, i am not sure what would be a better choice. I hope
the quality will improve over time because it doesn't seem to be a
fundamental hardware issue. Personally i would pay a little more for a
consumer class product that was easier to use. Not everything has to
come out of box of cracker jacks.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 07:46:28 -0800, greg <gre***@AOL.COM> wrote:

Some random comments (while waiting for XP to install).

That's one of my favorite complaints.  Lack of diagnostic information
makes troubleshooting and setup difficult.  It seems to be a growing
trend towards "simplification" of the user interface.

I beg to differ.  The default setup is for the DHCP server in the
router to deliver a workable IP address and default gateway to any
connected client setup for DHCP assigned IP's.  Since the first thing
I usually end up doing is a firmware update, a high speed setup
connection is a good idea.  I still remember doing 15 minute firmware
image uploads at 9600 baud using xmodem.  No thanks.  Also, USB setup
software usually require some kind of custom setup software that must
be installed, such as in the early WAP11 radios. 

Actually, it's possible the next degeneration of wireless devices will
probably be run totally by plug-n-play.  The original purpose of
plug-n-play was to autoconfigure such routers.  Many wireless routers
can (and are) workable right out of the box without tweaking any
settings.

Careful what you wish for.  Belkin has a setting in the setup of their
802.11b router that switched off the router section and created an
access point.  I tried it and discovered that it also switched off the
entire web based configuration utility.  According to the instructions
(which I read after screwing it up), I'm suppose to setup the access
point exactly the way I want it in router mode, then switch to access
point mode.  If I want to change anything, I would need to reset the
router to defaults, put everything back, and try again.  Nice idea,
crappy implementation.

It's easy enough to use a wireless router as an access point.
1.  Ignore the WAN port.
2.  Connect a CAT5 cable between your existing router and the LAN port
of the wireless router.
3.  Setup an IP address for the wireless router in the same Class C IP
block as the existing router, that is unique.
4.  Disable the DHCP server in the wireless router.
5.  Setup the wireless SSID, encryption, filters, WDS, etc.
There are a few trick on how to deal with broadcast packets, but it's
no big deal.

Dunno.  Sounds more like a broken router.

I'm always amazed at the variation in talent I get with various
outsourced tech support organizations.  It will vary from dismal to
amazing.  I had a short conversation with someone in India that was
apparently an engineering student and knew quite a bit about protocol
issues and security.

I'm not sure, but perhaps there are also three antennas inside the
plastic cover?  I'm curious.  Could I trouble you to post the FCC ID
numbers of the wireless router and PCMCIA card?

Careful.  Some clients like to see the SSID broadcasts.  That might be
why your DHCP did not renew properly.

Ugh, not good.  It's not suppose to do that.  I did an xcopy of about
20GBytes of about 5000 MP3 files in about 2 hours via wireless.  I
think the directory tree was about 5 layers deep.  No problems.  You
should be able to do that without problems.  I suggest to try it again
with a wired LAN connection instead of wireless to see if there might
be something wrong with the computahs involved.  If it's a Unix box,
watch out for running out of streams buffers.

Then do some light weight testing.  Ping the LAN port, ping the WAN
port, ping the ISP gateway IP, and ping something on the internet, in
that order.  That will tell you where the buck, er... packet, stops.

You must be an optimist.  My vision of the product cycle is that the
features get added faster than the bugs get fixed.  Given sufficient
time, the result is a feature infested, bloated, and buggy product.
With today's short product lifetimes, the replacement products are in
development long before the current products are obsolete.  The result
is that nobody wants to spend the time to fix the "old" product (also
known as the currently shipping product).  Fixes only happen when some
big customer plays a round of golf with the president and tells him
that they won't be buying more of his garbage until the existing
problems are fixed.  Usually, there's only enough time to do one or
two firmware revisions before the product is obsolete.  I give great
credit to companies such as Linksys and DLink that supply firmware
updates for products that they've stopped shipping long ago. 

I don't buy much Belkin hardware.  However, the little I do have
usually is stuck on the original shipping firmware version or perhaps
one revision beyond.  Unless Belkin want to capitalize on being the
first Pre-N vendor, and build a reputation on this product, my
guess(tm) is that what you see is what you're stuck with.

Take a look at how DOCSIS cable modems are setup.  EVERYTHING comes
from the CMTS via DHCP.  The parameter table is truely huge.  Wireless
and routers could be setup in a similar manner.  I've proposed such an
arrangement several years ago, but was told it was too expensive to
deploy.  I'm not sure you would want it that way as the primary
purpose was not to make things easy to install, but to enforce user
count and traffic restrictions at the client end.  As I said, careful
what you wish for.

Reminder:  FCC ID numbers please.

Jeff Liebermann <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
Some routers will work with a normal cable between two routers via LAN
port.   This feature is referred to as Auto-Uplink, or MDI/MDX.  Some will
need a crossed cable. 

(Jeff said to use a crossed cable somewhere around Jan 2.)

---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA  38.8,-122.5

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
That's fine. Just have complified interface as well.

But i don't want it to be router or a dhcp server for machine.

So you would congifure your client first with the security parameters?


You can't dump an idea for stupid stuff like that :-)

Yah, easy :-) I just want it to work. Flip a switch and it knows what
general mode to come up in.


Where would i get them from? I poked around XP a ltittle and didn't see
them.


How would i have turned off broadcasts before actually connecting to the
  box?


I've done that numberous times over the wired network and works fine.
Interestingly downloading large files over the internet isn't a problem.
It;s just local machine to machine copies.

I'll try that next time.


The alternative isn't worth the effort.


I thought radius was going to be the configuration master?

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:37:50 -0800, greg <gre***@AOL.COM> wrote:

No.  The router gets configured first.  What's not obvious is that if
the ISP cooperates and populates the ISP's DHCP server with all manner
of settings that are currently applied manually, and the router has
the required features, it would be possible for the ISP to
autoconfigure the router for you.  You do nothing.  Then, when you
fire up your wireless client, it also loads the requisite using
Universal Plug-n-Play to setup everything.

From the UPnP Forum web pile at:
  http://www.upnp.org
  UPnP technology is all about making home networking simple
  and affordable for users so the connected home experience
  becomes a mainstream experience for users experience and
  great opportunity for the industry.

It might happen, but don't hold your breath.

Do you want features or simplicity?  You can't have both.

Sigh.  On the serial number labels.  It will be in the form of
XXX-XXXXXX.  The search part of the FCC web pile a giant pain and
barely works.  Searching by manufactory and model number should work,
but doesn't.

Easy.  Y'er suppose to setup the router with a wired connection.  It
can be done via wireless, but methinks it's easier and better via a
wired LAN connection.  Don't even think of trying to update the
firmware via wireless.

RADIUS (Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service) is for
authentication, not for parameter setup.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
But you can. Make it simple. Make easy features easy. Make impossible
features possible. Thank you perl.


FCC IDs:
   Laptop card: SA3-AGN1023PC0200
   Router     : SA3-AGN090IAP0100


I would prefer a LCD screen to bootstrap the device.


It has stuff like your vlan in it and can have arbitrary parameters. I
thought cisco was going this way.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:17:40 -0800, greg <gre***@AOL.COM> wrote:

Duh.  No wonder I couldn't find it.  It's listed under Airgo instead
of Belkin.  Thanks much.

PCMCIA card
Most of the PDF's are "damaged".  Blank cover letter.  How convenient.

wireless router.  Incidentally you turn the "1" into an "I".
Nice photos of the insides:
Unfortunately, the photos of the PCMCIA card insides are "damaged" so
I can't determine if it really has 3 antennas in there and how they're
arranged.  Oh well.

Noted.  However, my experience with setting up HP LaserJet printers
and plotters, which have a nifty LCD screen and allow for front panel
setup is that I'm the only person on the planet that uses that method.
Imagine punching in the IP address, gateway, and netmask by punching
the buttons literally hundreds of times.  The newer firmware makes it
easier with an accelerated hold feature, but it's still somewhat
tricky.  Of course, everything on the panel is abbrev.  Most people
use the web based setup.

Maybe.  Most DOCSIS modems can be loaded in stages.  DHCP to setup
communications and RADIUS to authenticate and load additional numbers.
At this time, it's mostly DHCP.  That also the way the dialup return
works for a cable modem.  However, most of it is done with DHCP.  See:
for a partial list of parameters that can be passed.  I'm doing battle
with this one:
for supplying lat-long and floor number (or altitude) information via
DHCP.

If you wanna see what your DHCP server supplies, download the free
DHCP query utility from:
(see bottom of list).  You don't even need an IP address to use it.
When I tried it on an experimental wireless box at the local
university, it belched almost everything on the extended DHCP
parameters list, although most of the values were nulls.

Anyways, in my never humble opinion, the trend will be toward gross
oversimplification, Universal Plug-n-Play, self-configuration, and ISP
based control of routers.  However, it may take a few years to happen.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
It's small writing :-)

BTW, on the laptop card problem i changed the router configuration to
use immediate ack and the connection is reliable, if somewhat slower. I
had configured it for burst ack thinking that would perform better. It
did, but for large files or simultaneous activity it didn't work.

Tech support didn't seem to know anything about the router at all and
asked me no questions about the router configuration.


That puts ISPs in a role they probably can't handle.

Jeff Liebermann <je***@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
It's the same with Brocade fabric switches.
Without a full keyboard, an LCD setup is just slightly more useful than DIP
switches.  At least with a LaserJet, you can review the existing settings
by doing a printout.  With a router, you have to step through the same LCD
screens one at a time, checking your work... oops, changed that one while
trying to look at it.
I prefer http, telnet, serial, in that order.  And serial costs money, as
does an LCD.  The telnet where you can force-feed an initial IP address to
a MAC, used on Lantronix, among others, is handy.

---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA  38.8,-122.5

Jeff, here is a link to photos of the pre-n card.
http://www.pvnotes.com/archives/2005/02/faq_on_wlan_rec_1.html










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