? "Jukka Aho" <jukka.***@iki.fi> ?????? ??? ??????
news:R8qPg.14277$5r5.11353@reader1.news.jippii.net...
> Gaurav wrote:
>
> > I recently moved to United States from India, where I had a LCD TV
> > working on the European PAL system. Although the TV specification
> > says it's a dual mode, supposed to work with NTSC and PAL both, I
> > am facing problems viewing my cable channels on this TV.
>
> Even though the tv set supports both PAL and NTSC as baseband composite
> and s-video signals, it does not necessarily have a tuner that would
> work with the channel spacing and the positioning of audio subcarrier as
> used in the US.
>
> > Funny thing is that it shows some 2-3 channels (FOX/CBS) but not
> > all.
>
> Do you get the sound on those channels?
>
> > For other channels I get very grainy picture and no sound.
>
> Have you tried manual (fine) tuning?
>
> > Another funny thing is that it works with my NTSC DVD player. So
> > I am not at all sure if this is a NTSC/PAL problem or something else.
>
> PAL/NTSC/SECAM support is one thing, tuners are another thing. The tv
> set may fully support baseband NTSC signals (from peripherals such as
> DVD players, VCRs, video games, or digital set-top-boxes) even though it
> doesn't necessarily have an RF tuner that would be able to receive NTSC
> broadcasts properly.
>
> > Recently I got a COMCAST rep at our place and he says we need a RF
> > converter. He was not very clear about what was neeeded, and I am not
> > 100% sure if he had a clue.
>
> If I were you, I'd get a digital ATSC receiver (set-top-box) that can
> downconvert HD signals to SDTV resolution, if necessary. After
> purchasing one and connecting it to your television, you change the
> channels using the set-top-box's remote. (If I'm not totally mistaken,
> there are models out there which can receive both digital [ATSC] and
> analog [NTSC] broadcasts.)
>
> If you only want to see the analog channels, a cheap solution would be
> buying a regular VCR and using its built-in tuner for changing the
> channels. (You could even get a half-broken VCR - it doesn't matter if
> the tape transport doesn't work as long as the tuner does.)
>

> Jukka Aho wrote:
>
> >> Recently I got a COMCAST rep at our place and he says we need a RF
> >> converter. He was not very clear about what was neeeded, and I am not
> >> 100% sure if he had a clue.
>
> > If I were you, I'd get a digital ATSC receiver (set-top-box) that can
> > downconvert HD signals to SDTV resolution, if necessary. After
> > purchasing one and connecting it to your television, you change the
> > channels using the set-top-box's remote. (If I'm not totally mistaken,
> > there are models out there which can receive both digital [ATSC] and
> > analog [NTSC] broadcasts.)
>
> Reading the original post again, it seems you were trying to get the
> signal via cable. The advice given above was geared towards terrestrial
> reception via an aerial, so it may not be of much help in this case.
>
> There are similar digital set-top boxes for the cable, too, but I'm not
> quite sure what they are called on the US market. I'm also not sure if
> you can shop for one freely, or do you have to buy (or rent) some
> specific model which is only available from your local cable provider.
>
> Fortunately, Comcast - which you mentioned above - has a web page with
> further information. See the "digital cable" links here:
> <http://www.comcast.com/>.
>
> * * *
>
> Whatever you decide to do about your problem, the solution probably lies
> in bypassing the built-in, defunct tuner of your tv set. The easiest way
> of getting this done is purchasing _some_ sort of external box - be that
> made for the reception of terrestrial, satellite, or cable broadcasts
> (whichever is the most convenient option for you) - that can function as
> (1) a tuner, (2) a channel selector, and, ultimately, (3) as a baseband
> [composite video / s-video / component video] SDTV signal source for
> your tv set.
>
> --
> znark

"Jukka Aho" <jukka.***@iki.fi> wrote in
news:MOxPg.14593$nL1.2047@reader1.news.jippii.net:

> Jukka Aho wrote:
>
>>> Recently I got a COMCAST rep at our place and he says we need a
>>> RF converter. He was not very clear about what was neeeded, and
>>> I am not 100% sure if he had a clue.
>
>> If I were you, I'd get a digital ATSC receiver (set-top-box) that
>> can downconvert HD signals to SDTV resolution, if necessary.
>> After purchasing one and connecting it to your television, you
>> change the channels using the set-top-box's remote. (If I'm not
>> totally mistaken, there are models out there which can receive
>> both digital [ATSC] and analog [NTSC] broadcasts.)
>
> Reading the original post again, it seems you were trying to get
> the signal via cable. The advice given above was geared towards
> terrestrial reception via an aerial, so it may not be of much help
> in this case.
>
> There are similar digital set-top boxes for the cable, too, but
> I'm not quite sure what they are called on the US market. I'm also
> not sure if you can shop for one freely, or do you have to buy (or
> rent) some specific model which is only available from your local
> cable provider.
>
> Fortunately, Comcast - which you mentioned above - has a web page
> with further information. See the "digital cable" links here:
> <http://www.comcast.com/>.
>
> * * *
>
> Whatever you decide to do about your problem, the solution
> probably lies in bypassing the built-in, defunct tuner of your tv
> set. The easiest way of getting this done is purchasing _some_
> sort of external box - be that made for the reception of
> terrestrial, satellite, or cable broadcasts (whichever is the most
> convenient option for you) - that can function as (1) a tuner, (2)
> a channel selector, and, ultimately, (3) as a baseband [composite
> video / s-video / component video] SDTV signal source for your tv
> set.

"Jukka Aho" <jukka.***@iki.fi> wrote in
news:tsZPg.15811$rj1.2622@reader1.news.jippii.net:

> Gene E. Bloch wrote:
>
>>> Whatever you decide to do about your problem, the solution
>>> probably lies in bypassing the built-in, defunct tuner of your
>>> tv set. The easiest way of getting this done is purchasing
>>> _some_ sort of external box - be that made for the reception of
>>> terrestrial, satellite, or cable broadcasts (whichever is the
>>> most convenient option for you) - that can function as (1) a
>>> tuner, (2) a channel selector, and, ultimately, (3) as a
>>> baseband [composite video / s-video / component video] SDTV
>>> signal source for your tv set.
>
>> Any VCR sold in the US will be able to tune SDTV, and will be
>> able to be used for OTA signals or cable signals (not
>> simultaneously!) via an option in the setup menus, so that is a
>> good solution.
>
> Something to watch out for is that modern VCRs may switch
> themselves automatically into standby or power-saving mode after
> some idle time. (Which isn't all that nice in the middle of
> watching a tv show!)
>
> For instance, all European Philips VHS VCRs sold during the 90s
> seem to behave this way. They usually have a separate TUNER button
> on the remote, or some other method for temporarily disabling this
> auto-off function (such as pressing and holding the STOP button
> for a couple of seconds until the text "TUNER" lights up on the
> front panel), but if you have to do these kind of set-up exercises
> every time you start watching tv using the VCR's tuner, it's not
> too convenient.
>
> In case the OP considers purchasing a VCR for its tuner
> functionality, he is advised to check out in advance that the
> device doesn't have these kind of "helpful" power-saving features,
> or that they can at least be permanently disabled from the setup
> menus.
>
> * * *
>
> It should be noted that DVD recorders have tuners, too. A Tivo has
> a tuner, etc. So there are actually quite a lot of
> commonly-available external devices out there that could be used
> in place of the tv's built-in tuner. A VCR is not the only option.
>
>> I can't speak to the use of a set-top box from my own experience,
>> but it would be needed only for digital, pay-per-view, or other
>> extra cost services. Of course, it would not work for OTA TV. It
>> might be useful for HDTV, and might be able to downconvert for an
>> SDTV set.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding has been that the
> commonly-available ATSC HDTV tuners/set-top-boxes would _always_
> be able to downconvert to SDTV - if so required by the user, and
> switched into that mode via the set-up menus.
>
> My recommendation for getting a _digital_ set-top-box was based on
> the idea that tv broadcasts are going digital, anyway, so the OP
> may soon find out that he will want to purchase one. (And a quick
> googling around seems to suggest that digital set-top-boxes often
> have an analog tuner as well, so by purchasing this kind of box,
> he would not miss the analog channels, either.)
>
> Different countries have different time frames and schedules for
> going _all-digital_, though. (Up here where I live - Finland - the
> whole nation will go completely digital the next Semptember - all
> broadcasters, terrestrial and cable alike - after which any analog
> tv tuner in any device will basically become just a useless piece
> of junk.)
>
> * * *
>
>> I never would have thought of the tuner problem - thanks for the
>> insight!
>
> Modern PAL tv sets are, for the most part, multistandard in all
> other respects but for their tuner. This means you can usually
> connect regular NTSC equipment to a modern PAL tv set and expect
> it to happily sync to the 525-line / 59.94 Hz signal and decode
> NTSC colors. (Which is nice, since it allows viewing NTSC DVDs
> ordered from overseas, using [imported] NTSC game consoles and
> games, watching home videos sent by relatives living in NTSC
> countries, etc.) The tuner is a different story, however, because
> most sets are never going to be moved away from the country where
> they were first purchased.
>
> India (from where the original poster brought his tv equipment to
> the US) uses PAL/B for terrestrial broadcasts, so it's reasonable
> to expect that the set has a System B tuner. It is, however, less
> reasonable to expect it to have a System M tuner for receiving
> NTSC broadcasts.
>
> It is still interesting that the OP was able to receive _some_
> channels (without the sound?) using the tv's built-in tuner, even
> in the US. It's probably not totally unconceivable that a set with
> a System B tuner (but a capability of syncing to a 525-line signal
> and decoding a 3.58 MHz NTSC color subcarrier) _might_ be able to
> receive and display some NTSC-M broadcasts, at least without the
> sound, but if so, it must be something that is purely coincidental
> and never intended to work that way.
>
> Another explanation for the phenomenon might be that the set _is_
> able to receive over-the-air NTSC-M broadcasts, after all (in
> which case it really _does_ have a multi-standard B/M tuner) but
> the tuner is not capable of receiving the frequencies used in the
> US cable tv system. (If that is the case, the OP might want to try
> a rabbit-ears indoor antenna, just for the heck of it, to see if
> the set can receive over-the-air channels.)

>> Modern PAL tv sets are, for the most part, multistandard in all other
>> respects but for their tuner. This means you can usually connect
>> regular NTSC equipment to a modern PAL tv set and expect it to
>> happily sync to the 525-line / 59.94 Hz signal and decode NTSC
>> colors. (Which is nice, since it allows viewing NTSC DVDs ordered
>> from overseas, using [imported] NTSC game consoles and games,
>> watching home videos sent by relatives living in NTSC countries,
>> etc.) The tuner is a different story, however, because most sets are
>> never going to be moved away from the country where they were first
>> purchased.

> Actually what PAL kit does, in my experience, is:
>
> 1) Reads the NTSC tape and converts the colour information to PAL.
> It leaves the line/frame rates alone.
>
> 2) It outputs the result as a UHF signal on an unused channel.
>
> 3) The TV picks this up, syncs to the NTSC line/frame rate, and uses
> the PAL colour information for the picture.

"Jukka Aho" <jukka.***@iki.fi> wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
>
> >> Modern PAL tv sets are, for the most part, multistandard in all other
> >> respects but for their tuner. This means you can usually connect
> >> regular NTSC equipment to a modern PAL tv set and expect it to
> >> happily sync to the 525-line / 59.94 Hz signal and decode NTSC
> >> colors. (Which is nice, since it allows viewing NTSC DVDs ordered
> >> from overseas, using [imported] NTSC game consoles and games,
> >> watching home videos sent by relatives living in NTSC countries,
> >> etc.) The tuner is a different story, however, because most sets are
> >> never going to be moved away from the country where they were first
> >> purchased.
>
> > Actually what PAL kit does, in my experience, is:
> >
> > 1) Reads the NTSC tape and converts the colour information to PAL.
> > It leaves the line/frame rates alone.
> >
> > 2) It outputs the result as a UHF signal on an unused channel.
> >
> > 3) The TV picks this up, syncs to the NTSC line/frame rate, and uses
> > the PAL colour information for the picture.
>
> You may want to re-read the original post. What was described in the
> topmost quoted segment is in no way contradictory to the feature you
> brought up (so there is really no need for that challenging "Actually,
> ...". :)

> What you're describing above is a special case: playback of NTSC VHS
> tapes using a reasonably modern PAL VHS VCR, connected to a reasonably
> modern PAL tv set. ("Reasonably modern", in this context, means
> "manufactured some time after the year 1990, or so". See below.)
>
> For this to work, two things are assumed:
>
> - The PAL VHS VCR must support a feature commonly dubbed "NTSC playback
> on PAL TV". (This feature became commonplace in PAL VHS VCRs during the
> 1990s. You describe it pretty well in your point "1".)
>
> - The PAL TV set must be able to sync to a 525-line ~60 Hz signal with
> PAL color. (This, too, is a feature that became commonplace during the
> 1990s, and you describe it in your point "3".)
>
> Your point "2" - about using RF-modulated signal for relaying the
> picture to the tv set - is not incorrect as such (it _can_ be done that
> way, if necessary), but it sounds a bit strange. Europeans usually
> connect their VCRs to their tv sets using a SCART cable (which, in the
> case of VHS VCRs, carries baseband composite video signal + line-level
> audio.)
>
> RF signal is typically only used as the last resort if no other option
> is available - for example, if the tv set is from the early 1980s, and
> is missing a SCART socket. (The now-ubiquitous SCART sockets started
> appearing and becoming commonplace during the 1980s.)