"starcolony" <pizza2004***@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1119297441.491444.203610@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Greetings,
>
> I spent sometime yesterday in my friendly neighborhood big box
> store evaluating compact Mini-DV camcorders between $400 and $700.
>
> The store has all the cameras connected to a video monitor so you
> can view a TV size image of your results. After doing some basic
> comparisons for image quality and ergonomics, the Panasonic line
> of compact camcorders was in the lead. They felt great in my hand,
> and the buttons could easily be manipulated without changing hand
> position (for one handed use). The Panasonic cameras featured 3
> CCD technology that made for impressive images. My young daughter
> wandered by and looked at the side-by-side display of the
> Panasonic and a Sony. Her comment.... The Sony almost looks black
> and white. OK, I'm almost sold.
>
> My last test was comparing image stabilization. Imagine my
> surprise when the Sony cameras crushed the others when it came to
> a stable pic. The Sony cameras were more stable at 20x than the
> Panasonic cameras at 10x or 12x. I don't have stable hands and the
> stability of the image off a tripod is a crucial feature for me. I
> grabbed around 6 different Canon camcorders that functioned much
> like the Panasonics. At high zoom the image was unusable. To the
> best of my knowledge, all these cameras feature image
> stabilization, but compared to the Sonys, the others just seemed
> faulty or disabled.
>
> I asked a few of the sales folks, if maybe the other cameras had
> this feature turned off. For the most part they had no clue (I
> think I knew more about camcorders with 30 minutes of playing then
> they did). Finally the 4th salesman said that all the cams had
> image stabilization, and it was always active. I looked through
> several menus and found no options to turn stabilization on or
> off.
>
> I grabbed a high ticket ($100) Panasonic, that I believe has
> optical stabilization. At full zoom it worked well, but the image
> had a tendency to float around a bit that was absent in the Sony
> cameras. In my opinion, the Li'l Sony HC32 had image stabilization
> that crushed all other non-Sony cameras up to the $1000 mark.
>
> I came home and looked up camcorder reviews on camcorderinfo.com.
> I was surprised and disappointed that the evaluations do not even
> bother to have a category for evaluation such a crucial feature as
> image stabilization on a hand held camcorder. There was only a
> passing acknowledgement that the cameras had image stabilization
> and that black lines may be present if you film a TV monitor (near
> useless information).
>
> I tested them over and over with the same results. My wife picked
> up the cause, with the same results. My kids evaluated the images
> and came to the same conclusion. The Sony cameras provide stable
> images at high zoom (10x-20x)......The others were unusable at
> similar or lesser zoom (hand held).
>
> What's up here? Is Sony stabilizing that far and away superior to
> the others? I really want the Panasonic for the beautiful images
> and great ergonomics, but the shaky images were a showstopper.
>
> Help!!!
>
> Tracy
>
>

>
> Many manufacturers have PDF manuals on their websites...Look up your
> favorites and check out what I claim.
>
> Gino
>
> --
> Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
> letters617blochg3251
> replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom"

Ï "PTravel" <ptra***@travelersvideo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
news:3hoqb5Fhvc26U1@individual.net...
>
> "Gene E. Bloch" <hamburger@NOT_SPAM.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns967B888414C17Astrolabe@216.196.97.136...
> >
> > >
> > For one thing, in certain circumstances, stabilization causes
> > artifacts in the recording, so it is important to be able to control
> > it.
> >
> > One of theose "certain circumstances" is, according to posts in
> > video newgroups, when the 'corder is on a tripod. That seems weird
> > to me, but anyway, it is a popular opinion.
>
> This is true only for electronic image stabilization (EIS).  The problem
> occurs if the camera "thinks" that subject movement is actually camera
> movement and tries to compensate.  This is always a concern with EIS,
> incidently, whether or not the camera is on a tripod.  Also, when starting
a
> pan, the EIS system will try to compensate for the initial start and stop,
> confusing it with shake.
>
>
> >
> > Many manufacturers have PDF manuals on their websites...Look up your
> > favorites and check out what I claim.
> >
> > Gino
> >
> > --
> > Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
> > letters617blochg3251
> > replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom"
>
>

"Malcolm Stewart" <malcolm_stew***@megalith.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:d97977$6al$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "starcolony" <pizza2004***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1119297441.491444.203610@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I spent sometime yesterday in my friendly neighborhood big box store
> > evaluating compact Mini-DV camcorders between $400 and $700.
>
> > I grabbed a high ticket ($100) Panasonic, that I believe has optical
> > stabilization.
>
> I do hope that your "high ticket ($100) Panasonic" is a typo!  Otherwise
> there's absolutely no hope for us in the UK!!
>
> I've been using Sony camcorders (TRV22 & TRV60) for the last 2 years,
mainly
> without tripod, and if I'm careful, I can just about get away with
tolerable
> steadiness handheld at full zoom, 10x.  Any previous exertion on my part,
> and it's obvious that I'm handholding, but that probably says more about
my
> poor physical fitness.

>
> Another feature you might care to keep track of, is whether the camera has
a
> headphonce socket.  Very useful particularly if you're using an external
> microphone.  Before monitoring with phones, I managed to film a band with
> the mike jack not quite pushed home, and was rewarded with <silence>.
> You could also try the reviews on the  www.simplydv.co.uk website.
> --
> M Stewart
> Milton Keynes, UK
> http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm
>
>
>
>

>

> I am simply trying to make image stability comparisons
> between mid-price, consumer grade, compact, point and shoot cameras.
>
> I'll see what I can do to find out if the Panasonics and the Canons
> inadvertently had the stabilization turned off. If all are on and I
> receive the same results, I will have to conclude that Sony has a
> massive advantage with regards to image stabilization. For some this
> may not be a huge concern. For me, I have some physical limitations and
> need the camera to provide very good image stability. From there I will
> have to set my priorities and make a choice.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> TR
>

"starcolony" <pizza2004***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119297441.491444.203610@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Greetings,
>
> I spent sometime yesterday in my friendly neighborhood big box store
> evaluating compact Mini-DV camcorders between $400 and $700.
>
> The store has all the cameras connected to a video monitor so you can
> view a TV size image of your results. After doing some basic
> comparisons for image quality and ergonomics, the Panasonic line of
> compact camcorders was in the lead. They felt great in my hand, and the
> buttons could easily be manipulated without changing hand position (for
> one handed use). The Panasonic cameras featured 3 CCD technology that
> made for impressive images. My young daughter wandered by and looked at
> the side-by-side display of the Panasonic and a Sony. Her comment....
> The Sony almost looks black and white. OK, I'm almost sold.

>
> My last test was comparing image stabilization. Imagine my surprise
> when the Sony cameras crushed the others when it came to a stable pic.
> The Sony cameras were more stable at 20x than the Panasonic cameras at
> 10x or 12x. I don't have stable hands and the stability of the image
> off a tripod is a crucial feature for me. I grabbed around 6 different
> Canon camcorders that functioned much like the Panasonics. At high zoom
> the image was unusable. To the best of my knowledge, all these cameras
> feature image stabilization, but compared to the Sonys, the others just
> seemed faulty or disabled.
>
> I asked a few of the sales folks, if maybe the other cameras had this
> feature turned off. For the most part they had no clue (I think I knew
> more about camcorders with 30 minutes of playing then they did).
> Finally the 4th salesman said that all the cams had image
> stabilization, and it was always active. I looked through several menus
> and found no options to turn stabilization on or off.

>
> Help!!!
>
> Tracy
>

"Jukka Aho" <jukka.***@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:NsPte.7634$cZ2.5586@reader1.news.jippii.net...
> PTravel wrote:
>
>> At the price range you're looking at, all stabilization
>> will be EIS, i.e. electronic image stabilization, as
>> opposed to OIS (optical image stabilization) that is
>> used in prosumer cameras.  Usually, EIS detects shake
>> algorithmically by examining the image, rather than
>> with motion-sensing devices as in OIS-equipped units.
>
> Sony uses two "angular velocity sensors" - one for the horizontal
> direction, the other one for the vertical direction - for their SteadyShot
> feature. (This is the case at least in the 1st generation Digital8
> camcorders, which do not have OIS but do have EIS.)
>
> The service manual gives instructions on how to calibrate these if they
> have to be replaced.
>
> If not all manufacturers are using "angular velocity sensors" for their
> EIS feature, but depend on analyzing image content only, perhaps the
> difference the OP is seeing is due to this fact?

>
> --
> znark
>
>

>>> At the price range you're looking at, all stabilization
>>> will be EIS, i.e. electronic image stabilization, as
>>> opposed to OIS (optical image stabilization) that is
>>> used in prosumer cameras.  Usually, EIS detects shake
>>> algorithmically by examining the image, rather than
>>> with motion-sensing devices as in OIS-equipped units.

>> Sony uses two "angular velocity sensors" - one for the horizontal
>> direction, the other one for the vertical direction - for their
>> SteadyShot feature. (This is the case at least in the 1st generation
>> Digital8 camcorders, which do not have OIS but do have EIS.)
>>
>> The service manual gives instructions on how to calibrate these if
>> they have to be replaced.
>>
>> If not all manufacturers are using "angular velocity sensors" for
>> their EIS feature, but depend on analyzing image content only,
>> perhaps the difference the OP is seeing is due to this fact?

> It's possible, but I also wouldn't go by what Sony did with their D8
> machines.  Sony distinguishes between "SteadyShot" and
> "SuperSteadyShot." From what I understand, the latter can mean two
> different things depending on which camera you're talking about.
> Perhaps "SuperSteadyShot" refers to the velocity sensors, whereas
> "SteadyShot" is algorithmic.

>
> Assuming optical stabilization is really what you want, I think Canon
> invented it, and Sony and Panasonic use it under license from them.
> None of them include it on their cheaper models. I think Sony calls it
> SuperSteadyShot when they do. Afaik Canon just callis it optical image
> stabilization.
>
> Optical stabilization employs motion sensors that attempt to move the
> optics quickly enough to keep the image in the same place on the focal
> plane, nominally offering a "perfect" image. Electronic stabilization
> detects movement of the image on the focal plane and records data from
> a different place on the focal plane each time. Other than the fact
> that the process requires the image to be smaller than the focal plane
> to provide the wiggle room I'm not sure why the degradation.

> I've not used Panasonic, but in the 20x zoom range decent
> Canon and Sony cameras are pleasant to use hand-held (although at 20x
> there may be noticeable but not irritating "wandering")
>
> "starcolony" <pizza2004***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Greetings,
>>
>>I spent sometime yesterday in my friendly neighborhood big box store
>>evaluating compact Mini-DV camcorders between $400 and $700.
>
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> Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
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"Dave Martindale" <da***@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:d99enj$jfv$1@mughi.cs.ubc.ca...
> JT <NgPos***@missing.org> writes:
>
> >Optical stabilization employs motion sensors that attempt to move the
> >optics quickly enough to keep the image in the same place on the focal
> >plane, nominally offering a "perfect" image. Electronic stabilization
> >detects movement of the image on the focal plane and records data from
> >a different place on the focal plane each time. Other than the fact
> >that the process requires the image to be smaller than the focal plane
> >to provide the wiggle room I'm not sure why the degradation.
>
> Camera shake causes the image to move continuously on the sensor.  This
> causes each individual video frame to be somewhat blurred, as well as
> the position of everything in the frame to wander from frame to frame.
>
> Digital image stabilization, as well as stabilization done in an editing
> program, re-registers each successive frame with the frames before it.
> When successful, it removes the frame-to-frame position wander, but it
> can't unblur the individual frames.
>
> Optical image stabilization, when working properly, makes the image
> stationary on the sensor.  This avoids the blurring as well as the
> frame-to-frame wandering.  So the video is sharper at the same shutter
> speed, and the camera manufacturer isn't tempted to use a higher shutter
> speed to reduce blur (which has other side effects).

>
> Dave