Hi,

I've searched the archives and not found the answer, nevertheless this
feels like a Newbie question ;-)

I have Hi8 (Sony) videotapes, and I would like to buy the equipment to
transfer to digital. I plan to buy an iMac G5 and a firewire DAC,
perhaps Datavideo DAC-100. The plan would be to digitize everything,
unedited and at relatively low compression and archive it to DVD's as
source material for future editing.

My Hi8 camera has some form of time code (I don't know it's exact
specification) that preserves the actual time and calendar date of the
video, and this is the nub of my question. I want to preserve that
information for posterity so that when I've forgotten nearly everything
of the 'good old days' preserved on those tapes, I'll be able to
reconstruct the chronology. I'm not referring here to the time/date
title that appears on some videos, but rather to a continuous hidden
record of that information that's part of the video.

What do I need to have (and/or do) in order to make sure that the
calendar date and time become part of my permanent digital record.

(I'll gladly accept advice on any other aspect of this project too,
e.g. the choice of DAC, or recommendations on appropriate software and
video format for the "archiving" step)

With thanks, Mark

Show quote Hide quote I can offer that when I transfer/capture my Hi8 tape to my harddrive
in dv format via firewire, the "hidden record" you refer to is also
transferred.  I'll edit my project as needed and transfer back to
digital tape and the "hidden record" is still intact; and I can still
turn the time/date display on or off when I review the tape. 

Once the dv file is converted to mpeg/avi/vob or whatever, the
time/date data is lost.  If you burn the captured dv file to a dvd as
data (as opposed to dvdvideo) your time/date info will be preserved.

I should clarify that I was using a Digital8 camcorder with Hi8 tape.
If you used a camcorder prior to this model than take heed of Steve
M.'s advice.

It seems that the consensus on this thread is that playing a Hi8 tape
on certain D8 camcorders may allow the transfer of date/time to DV
format. Henry Padilla's done this with the Sony TRV-320. Could I ask
what camera you or others have manged to use successfully?

Mark

I also have the '320. (BTW: Tom usually uses "Henry's" account so thank Tom
for the 320 test ;)

Purely theory but the TRV120, 320, 520 and 720 are essentially identical
cameras. I'd guess if the 320 could do what you need, each of those would.

I'd also guess the previous model year would also likely do the same thing
(the x10 series).

C.


Show quoteHide quote

Videod wrote:
Show quoteHide quoteBuy a DVCAM deck (like a sony DSR-11).  Plug in your camcorder, and
transfer the Hi8 tapes over to either miniDV tapes or DVCAM tapes.

This preservers the highest possible quality, preservers the timeline,
and preservers the timecode.  If stored correctly, you will have a
lifetime, high quality archive, that you don't need a computer to work
with, unless you want to start to edit them.  Which is easy, as just
popping them into the deck again.

-Richard

$2 K for the DSR-11. Yikes!  :-)

My wife will never go for that!

Actually, I'm hoping to keep on using my analog Hi8 camera for the time
being and to stick with analog source material and digital data (DV
format) on DVD's  for the archives.

Thanks both Richard and un8bf for your replies.

Both of you suggest using a digital camcorder or deck in the process.
Has anyone tried this with an analog camcorder going through a DAC into
a computer?

Thanks

Mark

Show quote Hide quote Hi Mark,

I use a Canopus ADVC-55 analogue to DV converter (excellent results, by the
way) but this doesn't preserve the timecode from my Hi8 tapes.

That's fascinating. I actually have been considering Canopus (perhaps
the ADVC-100) for this project because it has locked audio. I will be
just streaming the 2h hi8 tape into the computer, so I can expect some
serious asynchrony if I don't have locked audio. But your experience
suggests that the original time code will be lost.

I'm at a bit of a loss here. If copying my tapes to DV in a DV tape
deck or camcorder will preserve the time code, it suggests that the
same should be possible in copying it into DV in a computer. If I'm
right about that, then the loss of time code with the Canopus device is
a fault of the device.

Does anyone have a handle on the technicalities of this particular
situation? I know that time code comes in different flavours, and I've
read that the Sony Hi8 flavour is a bit different from the DV standard,
but obviously if some are copying to DV tapes, they must be compatible.

Any DV converters out there that preserve this time code AND have
locked audio (and don't cost an arm and leg -- that's important!)?

Best Regards,

Mark

Show quote Hide quote The problem is that Hi8 is NOT digital.  There must have been some
mis-communication because copying Hi8 tapes to a different medium will NOT
preserve the TC.

PLAYING them in a Digital8 camcorder may.  I have done this a couple of
times.  Find an old Sony TRV-320 or something that takes Hi8 and D8 (I have
a 320 at home) and play the Hi8 tape in the 320 and transfer using firewire.
This will let the camera read the Hi8 date/time (it's not really TC) and
transfer the data as you would by firewire.

Do a look-see and see how much a used 320 could be.

Show quoteHide quote

"Videod" wrote ...
I've never heard of anyone experiencing such "asynchrony"
as a result of capture via one of the Canopus interface boxes.

We've all heard tales of DVDs that end up with badly out-of-
sync audio, but that is a result of subsequent processing, trans-
coding, etc. It is NOT a result of the digitization in the Canopus
box.

Since you are feeding only the video and audio into the Canopus
box, where do you think any timecode is coming from?

Using Firewire preserves not only the DATA (the video and audio),
but the METADATA (the timecode) in the same bitstream. This is
not possible using analog connections (video and audio). Commercial
video either uses an additional wire to carry the timecode, or else
"steals" one of the audio tracks to store timecode.

Since 99.9999% of users of the Canopus boxes are feeding it from
sources without timecode (VHS, 8mm, etc), Canopus kept the price
down by leaving out any provision for timecode.

No. The loss of timecode with the Canopus (or any other A/D
converter device) is a result of feeding it only the video and audio.

By definition, ANY device that takes only video and audio (as
contrasted with a digital bitstream like Firewire, USB2, etc.)
loses any timecode information. The timecode "metadata" is
"out-of-band" and must be carried separately unless you have
it interleaved into a digital bitstream.

Use a D8 camcorder which reads the Hi8 tapes, digitizes the
video and audio into a DV stream, and feeds the DV to the
computer via Firewire.  Still no assurance that it adds the
timecode data into the DV bitstream, however.  Why do you
think that you need the timecode?

That's my understanding too. I have read posts from others using the
Datavideo DAC100 who complain about this problem.

A reasonable question. Since you ask, I suspected that it was coded in
the video stream in a format that was nonvisible. In my mind, it was a
bit like SACD where encoding information is hidden in the lowest bits.
Yes, I know it's analogue, but we all know that analogue media can
store digital data (just like my hard drive). Essentially, I imagined
it "interleaved in the data stream" as per your description of DV.
Well, now you know about my thought process, but I'm the first one to
change my preconceptions when presented with facts. So I guess the time
code is somewhere else.

Do you know if Sony had a way of transmitting this data from "somewhere
else". It seems to me that the data must be used by their "edit
station"

I just want it. It tells me when I took the video -- date and time. So
I know whether it was someone's birthday, or a holiday, or whether it
was the kids getting up in the morning or going to bed at night. I'll
have to see if I can borrow a D8 to test out the concept before I buy.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

Mark

This is a eye-opener description of the locked audio issue:
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#LockedAudio

"Videod" wrote ...
One method used by professional formats back in the Analog Age
was to put SMPTE Timecode ("TC") on one of the (linear) audio
tracks.  This is called "linear timecode" (LTC).

A more recent method was to hijack one of the video lines (above
the masked part of the picture) and put the TC there. This is called
Vertical-Interval Timecode (VITC).  In fact if you diddle the
vertical-hold so you can see the vertical interval, you can still
see quite a bit of data encoded there. On one of the other "disposable"
lines is where they put closed-caption data (and "Teletext" in
Europe) And sometimes you can see one line worth of SMPTE
color bars and other test patterns.

However, these methods are very very rarely seen in consumer
equipment.  I've never seen it.

I believe it is transmitted through the "Control-C" or "Control-L"
"remote control" cable.

Just a note I should have made before.

The camera I'm using is a Sony CCD-TR3000 Handycam.

It's a pretty nice rig, actually. Great picture, S-Video outputs,
reasonable sound.

Anyway, I thought that might help someone who understands these things
better than I do to decipher exactly what brand of time code is used on
this device...

Mark

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