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Generation loss with DV?
I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming there are no hardware errors. What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both directions? It theory it should be totally loss-less, an exact bit for bit copy.
You have to watch out for dropped frames and occasional imperfections in your tape media. If a frame is dropped, you can usually hear it when you play the tape and sometimes you can see it. I find this usually happens during capture and not export. I use a 10,000 rpm hard drive to reduce the occurance of dropped frames. Imperfections in your tape will show up on the screen as flashes of "pixelization", little rectangles that are pretty obvious when you see them. My suggestion would be to watch your footage in its entirety after every transfer. It's tedious but worth it. Ven Hawkins On Wed, 4 May 2005 00:07:56 +0200, "Griffo Fooxburr"
<griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> wrote: >What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV Yes>footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire >again onto another tape? > Are there some additional things I should pay No titles or effects.>attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both >directions? -martin- -- "Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak." LOL! I was just re-reading a thread *I* started a couple months ago on
almost EXACTLY the same topic. :) Look for this subject: "DV25: back and forth generation loss?" It should answer ALL of your questions on the topic. C. Show quoteHide quote "Griffo Fooxburr" <griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> wrote in message news:d58spd$jhc$1@ss405.t-com.hr... > Hello all, > I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another > directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming > there are no hardware errors. > What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV > footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire > again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay > attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in > both > directions? > C.J.Patten wrote:
> LOL! I was just re-reading a thread *I* started a couple months ago on Actually I found it on Google groups immediatelly after I posted my> almost EXACTLY the same topic. :) > > Look for this subject: "DV25: back and forth generation loss?" > It should answer ALL of your questions on the topic. > > C. question. The trouble is that my NNTP server keeps only about last 30 days of messages and your "...back and forth..." thread is dated somewhere mid-March, hence my posting... Thanks! In message <d5a2c8$87***@ss405.t-com.hr>, Griffo Fooxburr
<griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> writes >Actually I found it on Google groups immediatelly after I posted my In which case you might like to use Google to access newsgroup postings >question. The trouble is that my NNTP server keeps only about last 30 >days of messages and your "...back and forth..." thread is dated >somewhere mid-March, hence my posting... from years back. In message <d58spd$jh***@ss405.t-com.hr>, Griffo Fooxburr
<griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> writes >Hello all, http://www.camcord.info/archiving>I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another >directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming >there are no hardware errors. >What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV >footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire >again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay >attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both >directions? > Generation Loss..
No kidding.,. Once I was working on a project wiht DV and when I was done I felt a generation older. Whew. I think it was a Final Cut Project too. Does that count? Show quoteHide quote "Griffo Fooxburr" <griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> wrote in message news:d58spd$jhc$1@ss405.t-com.hr... > Hello all, > I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another > directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming > there are no hardware errors. > What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV > footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire > again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay > attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in > both > directions? > nap.
pot. stir. LOL! ;) Show quoteHide quote "nap" <gospam@yourself.com> wrote in message news:ImTde.1772$5o2.356@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com... > Generation Loss.. > > No kidding.,. Once I was working on a project wiht DV and when I was done > I felt a generation older. Whew. I think it was a Final Cut Project too. > > Does that count? > > > "Griffo Fooxburr" <griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> wrote in message > news:d58spd$jhc$1@ss405.t-com.hr... >> Hello all, >> I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another >> directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming >> there are no hardware errors. >> What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV >> footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire >> again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay >> attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in >> both >> directions? >> > > Griffo Fooxburr wrote:
> Hello all, Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational > I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another > directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming > there are no hardware errors. > What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV > footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire > again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay > attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both > directions? > loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for: Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this can be significant. On Wed, 04 May 2005 16:46:43 +0100, Rehan <some***@somewhere.com>
wrote: > how about rendering to .wmv or .mpg? same problems?>Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering >in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of >every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this >can be significant. after working with a couple of different cheap video editors, Roxio and Pinnacle and even goofing about with Premiere Elements, I was shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, it seemed to do lightweight editing fairly well. are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie Maker? > ... I was shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, Yes I agree, WMM is very simple but powerful. I am most exceited about its > it seemed to do lightweight editing fairly well. extensible plugin interface that allows adding even more features at a fraction of cost to other editors. > are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie The most siginificant is its sensitivity to codecs. Some of the famous > Maker? codecs (e.g. divx) makes it crash. Other is its incompatibility with MPEG2 file types. However if you are not affected by these issues then your relationship with WMM can flourish. -- Rehan MS MVP -- Digital Media www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker "PeeVee_Hermann" <edwardapplejacksm***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1115222636.a2c9ef5ff16a4962f132f2c3766cf872@bubbanews...Show quoteHide quote > On Wed, 04 May 2005 16:46:43 +0100, Rehan <some***@somewhere.com> > wrote: > > >> >>Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering >>in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of >>every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this >>can be significant. > > > how about rendering to .wmv or .mpg? same problems? > > after working with a couple of different cheap video editors, Roxio > and Pinnacle and even goofing about with Premiere Elements, I was > shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, it seemed to do > lightweight editing fairly well. > > are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie > Maker? > > On Thu, 5 May 2005 01:13:21 +0100, "Rehan" <some***@somewhere.com> I just started messing around with it and so far, i'm kind ofwrote: >> ... I was shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, >> it seemed to do lightweight editing fairly well. > >Yes I agree, WMM is very simple but powerful. I am most exceited about its >extensible plugin interface that allows adding even more features at a >fraction of cost to other editors. > impressed with it. I did not know there were plug-ins available. Can you tell me where to look for these please? > what happens if i try to work with MPEG2 files?>> are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie >> Maker? > >The most siginificant is its sensitivity to codecs. Some of the famous >codecs (e.g. divx) makes it crash. Other is its incompatibility with MPEG2 >file types. However if you are not affected by these issues then your >relationship with WMM can flourish. I noticed it could not import or work with Quicktime Movies. I couldnt get Premiere elements to do that either, altho the box boasted it could. > I did not know there were plug-ins available. Can See my website for some of the plugins/custom effects: > you tell me where to look for these please? http://www.rehanfx.org The custom effects/transitions/titles are very hotly discussed on the forums at: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/forums Other must site to visit for movie maker stuff is: www.papajohn.org -- Rehan MS MVP -- Digital Media www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker "PeeVee_Hermann" <edwardapplejacksm***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1115299928.427b78191937727f083fc69a275c58f8@bubbanews...Show quoteHide quote > On Thu, 5 May 2005 01:13:21 +0100, "Rehan" <some***@somewhere.com> > wrote: > >>> ... I was shocked at how easy Windows Movie Maker was. And, >>> it seemed to do lightweight editing fairly well. >> >>Yes I agree, WMM is very simple but powerful. I am most exceited about its >>extensible plugin interface that allows adding even more features at a >>fraction of cost to other editors. >> > > I just started messing around with it and so far, i'm kind of > impressed with it. I did not know there were plug-ins available. Can > you tell me where to look for these please? > > > >> >>> are there any other significant flaws you noticed using Windows Movie >>> Maker? >> >>The most siginificant is its sensitivity to codecs. Some of the famous >>codecs (e.g. divx) makes it crash. Other is its incompatibility with MPEG2 >>file types. However if you are not affected by these issues then your >>relationship with WMM can flourish. > > > what happens if i try to work with MPEG2 files? > > I noticed it could not import or work with Quicktime Movies. I couldnt > get Premiere elements to do that either, altho the box boasted it > could. > > > > In message <erhk9BMUFHA.2***@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>, Rehan
<some***@somewhere.com> writes Show quoteHide quote >Griffo Fooxburr wrote: For Movie Maker to be useful, you do need to install the Panasonic VFW >> Hello all, >> I understand that if I copy a miniDV tape from one camcorder to another >> directly, I'll get EXACT copy, i.e. without any loss of quality, assuming >> there are no hardware errors. >> What I want to know is will the same apply if I transfer (capture) DV >> footage via fireware onto a hard disk and then put it back via firewire >> again onto another tape? Are there some additional things I should pay >> attention to, like using the same capturing utility for transferring in both >> directions? >> > >Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational >loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for: > >Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that rendering >in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th frame of >every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips then this >can be significant. > DV codec and the DV Type-1 to Type-2 converter. These can be found at http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/pdvcodec.zip and http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/dv.zip respectively. Tony Morgan wrote:
>> Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that So, with the above codec and converter 27th frame will be preserved?>> rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of >> 27th frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small >> clips then this can be significant. >> > For Movie Maker to be useful, you do need to install the Panasonic VFW > DV codec and the DV Type-1 to Type-2 converter. These can be found at > http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/pdvcodec.zip and > http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/dv.zip respectively. In message <d5d58h$sg***@ss405.t-com.hr>, Griffo Fooxburr
<griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> writes >Tony Morgan wrote: I've never encountered any frame loss (nor have any of my friends BTW), >>> Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that >>> rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of >>> 27th frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small >>> clips then this can be significant. >>> >> For Movie Maker to be useful, you do need to install the Panasonic VFW >> DV codec and the DV Type-1 to Type-2 converter. These can be found at >> http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/pdvcodec.zip and >> http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/dv.zip respectively. > >So, with the above codec and converter 27th frame will be preserved? > but having said that, I (and my friends) have always used the Panasonic DV codec. The Panasonic codec is a well documented fix for MM's support for only Type 1 DV. I am afraid but your message contains some incorrect statemnts.
> I've never encountered any frame loss (nor have any of my friends BTW), How did you manage that? Do you know of any hack to pursuade Movie Maker to > but having said that, I (and my friends) have always used the Panasonic DV > codec. use Panasonic codec? > The Panasonic codec is a well documented fix for MM's support for only Movie Maker always uses "Microsoft DV Codec" which is a DirectShow codec. > Type 1 DV. The panasonic codec is a VFW codec and cannot be used by Movie Maker. (VFW = Video for Windows, which is the old technology replaced by DShow six/seven years ago.) Therefore Panasonic DV Codec cannot be a fix for any shortcoming in Movie Maker at all. -- Show quoteHide quoteRehan MS MVP -- Digital Media www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker "Tony Morgan" <tonymor***@rhylonline.com> wrote in message news:NRFtMVEWxieCFwCJ@82.69.78.126... > In message <d5d58h$sg***@ss405.t-com.hr>, Griffo Fooxburr > <griffofBEZ@SPAMAhotmail.com> writes >>Tony Morgan wrote: >>>> Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that >>>> rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of >>>> 27th frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small >>>> clips then this can be significant. >>>> >>> For Movie Maker to be useful, you do need to install the Panasonic VFW >>> DV codec and the DV Type-1 to Type-2 converter. These can be found at >>> http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/pdvcodec.zip and >>> http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/software/dv.zip respectively. >> >>So, with the above codec and converter 27th frame will be preserved? >> > I've never encountered any frame loss (nor have any of my friends BTW), > but having said that, I (and my friends) have always used the Panasonic DV > codec. > > The Panasonic codec is a well documented fix for MM's support for only > Type 1 DV. > -- > Tony Morgan > http://www.camcord.info In message <uQqVNacUFHA.***@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, Rehan
<some***@somewhere.com> writes >How did you manage that? Do you know of any hack to pursuade Movie Try using Google. It's also on PapaJohn's website. As I said, it's well >Maker to use Panasonic codec? documented. Tony Morgan wrote:
> In message <uQqVNacUFHA.***@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, Rehan Please point me to it as I cannot locate it on Papjohn's website. > <some***@somewhere.com> writes > >> How did you manage that? Do you know of any hack to pursuade Movie >> Maker to use Panasonic codec? > > > Try using Google. It's also on PapaJohn's website. As I said, it's well > documented. > neither can I locate anywhere else about the subject of using non-microsoft dv codec with movie maker. In your reply please post a few links! Hope you are not just making it up ? In message <OHC1foiUFHA.1***@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>, Rehan
<some***@somewhere.com> writes Show quoteHide quote >Tony Morgan wrote: No I am not. The real laugh is that you profess to write plug-ins for >> In message <uQqVNacUFHA.***@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, Rehan >><some***@somewhere.com> writes >> >>> How did you manage that? Do you know of any hack to pursuade Movie >>>Maker to use Panasonic codec? >> Try using Google. It's also on PapaJohn's website. As I said, it's >>well documented. >> > >Please point me to it as I cannot locate it on Papjohn's website. >neither can I locate anywhere else about the subject of using >non-microsoft dv codec with movie maker. In your reply please post a >few links! > >Hope you are not just making it up ? > MM... LOL. Worse, you seem too clueless to use Google. Here's a link that will help even you to download and install the Panasonic codec. http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/guide_wmm2.htm Also, since you seem to have so much difficulty finding things, here's a PapaJohn webpage that gives a whole bunch of information (including how to register/unregister codecs). http://www.eicsoftware.com/PapaJohn/MM2/MM2.html There's a huge amount of information on MM related things on PapaJohn's website - if you take the trouble to look for it. Tony Morgan wrote:
.... > No I am not. The real laugh is that you profess to write plug-ins for Tony, this web page only shows you how to convert a DV AVI file produced > MM... LOL. Worse, you seem too clueless to use Google. > > Here's a link that will help even you to download and install the > Panasonic codec. > > http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/guide_wmm2.htm > by Movie Maker from type 1 to type 2. This can be done either using VirtualDub or by using a freely available converter. This process will not fix the dropped frames that are dropped by Movie Maker prior to any conversion. Please read the information carefully you post about. Although I can understand how the (vague) wording used on the webpage might mislead people who have not tried the procedure themselves. But this is very irresponsive of you to boast with such authority about things you have not actually tried! > Also, since you seem to have so much difficulty finding things, here's a I am fully aware of Papjohn's website and its content. But you claimed > PapaJohn webpage that gives a whole bunch of information (including how > to register/unregister codecs). > > http://www.eicsoftware.com/PapaJohn/MM2/MM2.html > > There's a huge amount of information on MM related things on PapaJohn's > website - if you take the trouble to look for it. > that his website contains information about using Panasonic DV codec to replace broken Microsoft DV codec within Movie Maker. I challenged you to justify this claim but you have just provided shallow reply pointing to the main web page. This did not prove anything. This is my final reply to you unless you come up with something substantial (rather than slurs and flame war). For others benefits i will summarise the current knowledge about Movie Makers DV AVI output: When rendering to DV AVI, Movie Maker drops one frame for every clip used in a project. This problem cannot be avoided by installing any other DV codec. More information about this issue is mentioned on the following page on Papajohn's website. Note: No mention of a solution via panasonic codec as claimed by Tony: http://www.eicsoftware.com/PapaJohn/MM2/MM2-Issues-Video.html Best regards. Rehan wrote:
> Be warned that although theoretically there should be no generational Why is that?????? I mean, if it's a known bug is there an official fix? What> loss, in practice there are a few things to look out for: > > Windows Movie Maker. If you are editing in WMM then note that > rendering in DV AVI from movie maker results in COMPLETE LOSS of 27th > frame of every clip. If you do a lot of editing with many small clips > then this can be significant. does M$ say about that? Btw, is it every 27th frame or only THE 27th frame in each clip? Griffo Fooxburr wrote:
> MS are aware of it. I dont know what their policy is about resolving it. > Why is that?????? I mean, if it's a known bug is there an official fix? What > does M$ say about that? Papajohn has done extensive study of this bug and has sent his observations to MS. > It is approximately 27th in each clip. I say approximately as the number > Btw, is it every 27th frame or only THE 27th frame in each clip? > of the frame that gets lost is not persistent after the first clip. See papajohns site: http://www.eicsoftware.com/PapaJohn/MM2/MM2-Issues-Video.html 
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